Friday, October 03, 2008

Chana in The YU Observer on Transexuality and Tolerance

Chana, she of the brilliant writing and beautiful soul, has written a good article in Yeshiva University's Observer called To Understand Is Not To Condone. She credits me for the title.

Much of this issue of The Observer is a reaction to the furor that resulted from the news that Professor Joy Ladin, previously Jay Ladin, was returning to work as a woman.

Although Ladin's transformation is understood by most Orthodox Jews to be a violation of halakha (Rabbinic law) Chana argues that they are still obliged to show her understanding and compassion:
I have decided to explore the issue of transsexuality and transgenderism within this paper. I have specifically decided to explore it within the context of the Orthodox Jewish community. There are many questions. Is it permissible or impermissible to transition as an Orthodox Jewish transsexual? If one does so, does he retain the status of his original sex, or that of the one he currently physically presents as? How are Orthodox Jews to treat such a person? And perhaps most importantly for us, in terms of our desire to understand, what does it mean to be an Orthodox Jewish transsexual? What is such a person like, and what does he feel? There is no doubt that we must follow the Law, whatever the Law proclaims. But that does not mean that we must blind ourselves and refrain from understanding exactly what it is we do when we practice that Law. It is upon us to understand the struggles and the pain of our fellow Jew, to love him and to wish we could help him, and indeed, to do so in any way possible within the Law.

To understand a person is not to condone his actions. To understand a person is to tell him you appreciate his pain, and realize that he walks in darkness. You understand his natural desire to be accepted by others, and perhaps to have his sins dubbed mitzvot. You understand this desire because you have felt it yourself. This understanding is separate from what you will actually do, the Laws you will keep, your comprehension of that Law, and of the Halakha. To understand is to exercise compassion toward another, to the extent that it is possible. One who understands another person's situation, and who realizes that this person acts out of honesty, not malice, that he acts to preserve himself, not to aggravate or horrify others, could not possibly act cruelly toward him. For he would realize that this person is similar to himself, and to laugh at this person, or deride him, is to deride himself. We are one people, and we share one heart and one destiny. It is upon us to exercise our understanding, compassion and kindness whenever it is possible, in the same way that we would like to be judged in that manner when we too fall. The Halakha is our final master, and we bow to it. Yet we do so with heavy hearts, because if there were a way to help our brethren, we would desire to do so.

I applaud Chana for going as far as possible within the confines of her religion to stand up for Ladin. She'll probably take some hits for it at YU, but maybe her article will cause the students to show a little more compassion and a little less judgment.

Still, though, Chana remains within the confines of her religion. She cannot declare that a man becoming a woman is a moral choice because she cannot go against clear statements by Orthodox rabbis and even the Torah itself. The most she can do is call for compassion by pointing out that we are all sinners.

But transsexuality is not a sin. Changing your clothes and even your body to reflect the gender you identify with harms nobody and is a standard medical treatment for gender identity disorder. The Bible and the Talmud were written by men living in an earlier, less scientific time, not by the all-knowing Creator of the universe who probably doesn't even exist.

I've written before about How Orthodoxy Causes Good Men to do Evil. Compassionate Orthodox people like Chana are trapped between what they probably know is right (in this case, to understand AND to condone) and the law they believe comes from God.

Sometimes I feel guilty trying to convince people like Chana that their mostly deeply-held religious beliefs are factually incorrect. I don't always want to be the kid telling his friends that Santa doesn't exist. But other times, I see good people constrained by out-of-date moral dogma and I want to do everything I can.

21 comments:

Beth said...

With all due respect, those of us who are both Orthodox Jews and transsexuals would disagree with you. Sure, we'd rather that things were different than they are. But then, I'd rather have lots of money in the bank, too. Wanting something doesn't make it so.

Jewish Atheist said...

With all due respect, those of us who are both Orthodox Jews and transsexuals would disagree with you.

Beth, I promise I mean zero condescension with this, but I feel sorry for people like you most of all. You're like the women in Africa who passionately defend female genital mutilation. You deserve better.

Holy Hyrax said...

>She cannot declare that a man becoming a woman is a moral choice because she cannot go against clear statements by Orthodox rabbis and even the Torah itself.

Well, just for clarity sakes, Chana would agree its a moral choice, just the wrong one.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

"Changing your clothes and even your body to reflect the gender you identify with harms nobody and is a standard medical treatment for gender identity disorder."

Which is also downright bizarre once you stop and think about it. Yeah, some people have a psychological disorder - let's do surgery to legitimize their misperceptions.

Look up Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

Beth said...

Beth, I promise I mean zero condescension with this, but I feel sorry for people like you most of all. You're like the women in Africa who passionately defend female genital mutilation. You deserve better.

JA, is it really so hard for you to understand that some of us genuinely think the Torah is true? I wasn't raised frum, and I'm not one of those people who got invited for Shabbat and got the warm fuzzies about it. Quite frankly, I'd be a lot more comfortable with a mechanistic universe. But I'm convinced on an intellectual level that the Torah is true.

HH, whatever prohibitions are violated in transitioning, they're chukim, and not mishpatim. You can't label them as immoral like that.

Jewish Atheist said...

Ortho:

Which is also downright bizarre once you stop and think about it. Yeah, some people have a psychological disorder - let's do surgery to legitimize their misperceptions.

I agree with you that it sounds bizarre, but gender identity disorder could be described just as accurately as a physical disorder. It's just how you look at it.

And we know how to "fix" the physical disorder. As far as I know, nobody can fix the mental one.

Look up Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

I knew somebody would bring that up! I think it is a pretty good analogy, and I would support surgery in that instance as well, provided no other treatment worked and the patient really really wanted it.


Beth:

JA, is it really so hard for you to understand that some of us genuinely think the Torah is true? I wasn't raised frum, and I'm not one of those people who got invited for Shabbat and got the warm fuzzies about it. Quite frankly, I'd be a lot more comfortable with a mechanistic universe. But I'm convinced on an intellectual level that the Torah is true.

Well, that is interesting. If that's the case, you should go read through my archives and XGH's and maybe we can convince you it's not true.

HH, whatever prohibitions are violated in transitioning, they're chukim, and not mishpatim. You can't label them as immoral like that.

I don't understand your point here. We can't understand them because they're chukim, and therefore they can't be immoral? Why not?

Jewish Atheist said...

Oh, and HH, good point. I agree.

Beth said...

Well, that is interesting. If that's the case, you should go read through my archives and XGH's and maybe we can convince you it's not true.

Don't take this the wrong way, JA, but I suspect that a number of people who've tried that may have been even more erudite than you and XGH. I'd be happy to debate the issue with you if you'd like, but I find it unlikely that going through all of your archives is going to make that much of a difference.

I don't understand your point here. We can't understand them because they're chukim, and therefore they can't be immoral? Why not?

You were implying (correct me if I'm wrong) that if it's halakhically unacceptable to transition, then from a frum POV, transitioning is not a moral choice. My point is that with chukim, you can't place a moral value on them. It's immoral, from a frum POV, to steal. It's assur and immoral. But eating treyf isn't immoral. It's just assur.

Beth said...

Let me add, just by way of background, that I became frum in college (not through any kiruv organization; more through arguing with a Reform professor in class), that I learned for a while in a smicha kollel and left because I got a job offer. I'm 45 years old, and it's been a bit over 13 years since I transitioned; a bit over 12 since I had surgery. I live in a predominantly Jewish (frum) community and got to a middle of the road Orthodox shul.

I'm not some victim of Aish, and I'm not casually frum. I've gone off the derekh three times since transitioning and come back each time for the simple reason that, as Chana reported in one of her articles, it's harder to live with my own disapproval than it is to live with the disapproval of others.

Jewish Atheist said...

Beth,

Don't take this the wrong way, JA, but I suspect that a number of people who've tried that may have been even more erudite than you and XGH.

No doubt. Sometimes it's more effective to read a peer's opinions, though. If you prefer to plow through the scholars, then by all means, go ahead.

I'd be happy to debate the issue with you if you'd like, but I find it unlikely that going through all of your archives is going to make that much of a difference.

It's not about me -- if you want to be convinced it's not true, then I'll be happy to help. If not, why bother?

You were implying (correct me if I'm wrong) that if it's halakhically unacceptable to transition, then from a frum POV, transitioning is not a moral choice. My point is that with chukim, you can't place a moral value on them. It's immoral, from a frum POV, to steal. It's assur and immoral. But eating treyf isn't immoral. It's just assur.

I get it now. That is an important distinction. It's too bad that more Orthodox Jews don't make it.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

"...gender identity disorder could be described just as accurately as a physical disorder. It's just how you look at it."

I'm not sure how that's relevant. I fully agree that it is a real disorder, I'm just not very confident that it's treated appropriately. The issue is supratentorial, as they say, not perineal.

"And we know how to "fix" the physical disorder. As far as I know, nobody can fix the mental one."

GID has been known to remit for years at a time and it is not uncommon for people who have gone through SRS to have great regret afterwards. Psychotherapy alone has been shown to be effective for moderate cases.

Frankly, I think there should be case studies done investigating psychotropics as a treatment rather than the jump to surgery.

"I knew somebody would bring that up! I think it is a pretty good analogy, and I would support surgery in that instance as well, provided no other treatment worked and the patient really really wanted it."

I think it's similarly bizarre. By cutting off a person's limb you're giving in to a disorder that does clear and present harm to the patient. Again, psychotherapy and psychotropic medications should be used way before surgeons start hacking away.

We should do the medication trials for all these disorders now before politics turns the other way and the DSM people decide these things aren't disorders after all.

Beth said...

GID has been known to remit for years at a time and it is not uncommon for people who have gone through SRS to have great regret afterwards. Psychotherapy alone has been shown to be effective for moderate cases.

Orthoprax, you're mistaken. It doesn't remit. What happens is that you can repress it for a time. But even while you're repressing it, it never goes away. It's like chronic pain: always there. Always hurting. The fact that a person can function through the pain doesn't mean that the pain has gone away.

I was 24 when I got married. It was about 4 months later when I couldn't deal with the GID any more and told her about it. She was actually quite wonderful about it. I was going to try and transition then, but we were living in Israel, and it was 1988, and there was really no way to do it. The social worker I saw at the AACI didn't know what GID was. The shrink (sexologist) I went to was accepting, but I had the feeling he'd be accepting of bestiality, too. I walked out of his office feeling like I needed a shower. The endocrinologist I went to told me it would be against international law (I kid you not) for him to prescribe hormones for me. Eventually, I gave up. The way I felt never changed, but I stopped pursuing it. That's the kind of "remitting" that happens. And 7 years later, with two wonderful children, it hit again so badly that I couldn't take it any more.

Was it good that I managed to repress it for those 7 years? Ask my kids. Ask my ex.

From 3 to 12, it was an ache. At 12 I hit puberty and the ache turned to pain. There is no analgesic for this kind of pain. But there is a cure.

And no, it's not true that it's common for people who've had GRS to regret it. It happens, yes, but it's the exception, rather than the rule. My only regret was that I waited as long as I did.

I always marvel at those people like yourself who, knowing nothing at all about what it's like to suffer from GID, blithely make false claims about regrets after surgery and GID going away. It's almost as though you're trying to come up with reasons why your opposition to people transitioning isn't merely personal bias.

Jewish Atheist said...

ortho:

I'm very skeptical that something so profound as a gender identity can be "cured" by psychotropics or therapy of any kind. And I think Beth has a little more credibility here, unless either of you has good empirical data.

Beth:

Thanks for your comments here. You have a very important perspective!

Holy Hyrax said...

So from what I understand from Beth, its that GRS is no more immoral than tattooing ones body.

Beth said...

HH, neither one of them is a moral issue as such. However, I'd say that getting a tattoo is far worse halakhically, since it takes next to nothing to refrain from getting a tattoo. Violating that issur when it's so easy to not do so surely deserves more condemnation than violating whatever issurim are involved in transitioning. Hell, eating a treyf hamburger is worse than transitioning, as far as I can see.

Of course, neither you nor I nor gedolei Yisrael determines the relative weight of such things. That's for HKBH to calculate. No one is asking you for your approval. But I have more than one rabbinic authority I can rely on for saying that my current halakhic status is female, and while you aren't bound to accept those views, you are bound to behave with a decent regard for other halakhically sound views, even those you disagree with.

Holy Hyrax said...

I wasn't making any judgement calls, I was simply trying to get some clarity

Orthoprax said...

JA,

"I'm very skeptical that something so profound as a gender identity can be "cured" by psychotropics or therapy of any kind. And I think Beth has a little more credibility here, unless either of you has good empirical data."

Of course I do. Do a medical literature search.

Isaac Marks, Richard Green and David Mataix-Cols. "Adult gender identity disorder can remit." Comprehensive Psychiatry
Volume 41, Issue 4, July 2000, Pages 273-275.

"Reports were reviewed for apparent remissions in adult GID. GID and paraphilias may wax and wane. This fluctuation can be in tandem with that of comorbid psychopathology or in response to sexual and other life events. Remission has been documented at up to 10 years. If evaluated over many years, GIDs and paraphilias can be less fixed than is often thought. The frequency of permanent remission may be underestimated, as such subjects may not consult clinicians."


"In the treatment we always face the question of whether the feeling should be adjusted to the body or the other way around. For the milder forms of gender identity disorders psychotherapy can be used."

http://www.web4health.info/en/answers/sex-gender-treat.htm


Beth,

I sympathize with your plight, but your personal story only makes for a sample of one.

Beth said...

It makes for more than that. Because the sources you bring would consider my 7 years of repression as "remission". When it was anything of the sort.

Sure, if your goal is to get people to toe the line socially, regardless of their inner turmoil, that's doable. For a time. But it's not real remission. To use a cancer metaphor, if you use drugs to manage the symptoms of cancer, that's not remission; it's management. What they call remission in these studies is nothing more than management.

Of course, if you'd asked me during those seven years what the deal was, I probably would have said, "It's under control". Actually, there's no probably about it; that's exactly what I did say. And I was all self-righteous about how Hashem doesn't give us challenges we can't overcome, and how I have free will, and how if I choose not to transition, that's my choice, and I can deal with the dissonance.

But it was all a steaming load, really. Pure denial.

People can endure just about anything. For a time. But it's like Rabbi Akiva's thing with the drops of water on the rock. Anyone can be worn down eventually.

What really irks me is the way people like you actually work to make it harder for transpeople to do well following transition. You talked about "regrets". Well, I haven't been able to so much as talk to my children for over 12 years. I have family members who treat me like garbage, some of whom I used to be really close to. I'm constantly running into old friends from high school or college or work who have no idea that I'm their old friend, and it rips me up not to be able to say "hi" and pick up where we left off. What are we, if not the sum of our experiences and the relationships we've forged with other people? But it's not fair to dump something like this on someone who may or may not be able to deal with it, so I don't.

All of that stuff can make me miserable. It doesn't happen every day, of course, so it's nothing like the misery of before I transitioned. But I understand why people even after transition can find themselves depressed still. It's not because of regrets about transitioning as such. It's a result of the social rejection of others. That hurts. Even someone who isn't very social, like me, can feel it.

People like you, Orthoprax, trumpet your rejection, and then trumpet your triumph even louder when the rejection creates the problems you predicted. I wish there were some way to help you see how wrong you are.

Beth said...

Let me add that I went to the link you gave, and the kinds of GID they're talking about have nothing to do with transsexuality. I don't see crossdressers and transsexuals as being different points on the same spectrum. They're completely different things, whatever their surface similarities may be. I can't speak to whether crossdressers people with other paraphilias can or cannot use psychotherapy to overcome their feelings. I wouldn't be surprised at all. But transsexuals aren't just extreme crossdressers.

Orthoprax said...

Beth,

"It makes for more than that. Because the sources you bring would consider my 7 years of repression as "remission". When it was anything of the sort."

Did you actually read the article? It accounts for a decrease in actual reported dysphoria, not just a management of symptoms - i.e. reduced or removed inner tormoil.

I'm a little suprised that someone who thinks others are so closed-minded cannot themselves conceive of other transsexuals who were actually helped in a different way from their own course of treatment.

More than anything else, the GID you describe for yourself sounds akin to an obsessive disorder. It's a little late for that now, but perhaps psychotherapy could actually have helped you.

"What really irks me is the way people like you actually work to make it harder for transpeople to do well following transition."

What I'd like to do is help people with their real problem rather than creating a set of absurd social problems which turn their lives upside-down. People ought not have to go through what you go through. If we can do that by fixing what's wrong mentally then that whole route should be exhausted before we try changing biology.

"Let me add that I went to the link you gave, and the kinds of GID they're talking about have nothing to do with transsexuality."

You're wrong. In one article they talk about both but they also talk about them separately.

Beth said...

I realize that this discussion ended a while back, but I thought this might be of interest.

Article: "Gender bending in the genes"

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24555649-2862,00.html

Grant McArthur
October 27, 2008 12:00am
MELBOURNE scientists have broken new ground in supporting the case that genetics more than individual choice play a key role in determining our sense of gender.

A transsexual gene, believed to be responsible for people feeling they were born the wrong sex, has been discovered by the Melbourne team.

The breakthrough supports the view that there is a biological basis to the gender confusion faced by transsexuals, rather than the social stigma attached with theories that gender reassignment is a lifestyle choice.

In the largest genetic study of its kind, 112 male-to-female transsexuals took part in a study involving several Melbourne research bodies and the University of California, Los Angeles.

After studying the DNA of the male-to-female transsexuals, genetic experts from Prince Henry's Institute at the Monash Medical Centre found they were more likely to have a longer version of a gene known to modify the action of sex hormone testosterone.

The genetic abnormality on the androgen receptor gene is believed to lower testosterone action during fetal development, and "under-masculinise" the person's brain, leading them to feel like a female trapped in a male body.

Lead researcher Associate Prof Vincent Harley, head of molecular genetics at Prince Henry's, said the findings dismissed decades of debate that physiological factors such as childhood trauma were responsible for people's belief they should be the opposite sex.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice. However, our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops," he said.

Other recent studies have indicated family history and genetics are involved in gender identity, a view supported by Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic director Dr Trudy Kennedy.

"People who come to our clinic describe how they knew they were different at a very early age; just three or four years old when they were at kindergarten," Dr Kennedy said.

"This is something that people are born with, and it's certainly not a lifestyle choice, as some have suggested."

Publishing their results today in the Biological Psychiatry journal, the researchers call for expanded genetic studies to investigate a wider range of genes, which may also play a part in gender identity.

"It is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinisation of the brain in male-to-female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminised brain and a female gender identity," they wrote.

The study research was jointly funded by the National Health and Medical Research Council and the US National Institutes of Health.

- with AAP