Thursday, September 18, 2008

Chart of the Day: Obama and McCain on Taxes



Via Andrew Sullivan.

25 comments:

Ezzie said...

Snort. Freakonomics posted about this, comparing the different media and their various representations of the tax cuts etc.

More importantly, so? Go learn who is in the top percentages - take away their money, and you're costing everyone underneath far more than the couple hundred you've "saved" them.

You're not that easily fooled, are you? :)

Holy Hyrax said...

Also, from what I quickly heard, don't the bottom 40% pay zero taxes anyways? His tax cuts are basically going to be sending checks to everyone.

Jewish Atheist said...

More importantly, so? Go learn who is in the top percentages - take away their money, and you're costing everyone underneath far more than the couple hundred you've "saved" them.

Riiight. Trickle-down economics is all about helping the little guy.

Jewish Atheist said...

And I think this chart is among the most honest because it's scaled by number of people. A lot of the other ones make it look like McCain's tax cuts (and Obama's only tax increases) are going to a much bigger percentage of the public.

And McCain and Palin are out there lying their asses off about Obama supposedly raising taxes on the middle class. This kind of chart is important. It's just the facts. If you support less progressive taxation, fine, but you should at least know what you're voting for.

Stopped Clock said...

So if Obama isnt raising taxes on the middle class, what is he going to do about the Bush tax cuts due to expire in January 2011? Cross party lines and vote with the Republicans who want to make them permanent, and against the Democrats who want to end them?

Please explain for those of us Republicans who think taxes are high enough already.

Holy Hyrax said...

>Riiight. Trickle-down economics is all about helping the little guy.

I don't think its about helping the little guy. Its more like helping out the overall economy where everyone, including the little guy are doing well.

Jewish Atheist said...

Stopped Clock:

He said he wants to let the Bush tax cuts expire for only those making over $250,000. I assume if he were president, the Dems in Congress would go along with that. The Republicans won't, of course, because the only people they care about giving tax cuts to make more than $250,000.

Please explain for those of us Republicans who think taxes are high enough already.

Well, Obama will lower them more than McCain will, unless you're making well into six figures.


HH:

I don't think its about helping the little guy. Its more like helping out the overall economy where everyone, including the little guy are doing well.

But history shows that doesn't work. Income growth for all groups but the richest is better under Democratic presidents, and it's even the same for the richest. Under Republicans, everybody does worse except the richest. These are the facts.

Stopped Clock said...

Can you show me some place where Obama specifically states that he is going to retain the tax cuts for the <250K people? I have seen speeches where he doesn't mention it, but as they say in criminology, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.

If you can find me an actual statement by Obama in which he promises to retain the Bush tax cuts on the lower and middle classes than I will be very grateful because I expect that Obama will win and I dont want my taxes to go up. I literally stay awake at night thinking about things like this, I know maybe I take politics too seriously, but that's the way I am.

Stopped Clock said...

Sorry, I meant to add this link to my first post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/07/obama-recession-could-del_n_124647.html

Without it, it does kind of look like I'm making stuff up.

Now, the reason I'm worried is that it would take a specific action by the incoming legislature to keep the tax cuts in effect. Simply doing nothing means that the tax cuts will expire, and taxes will rise very sharply. The lowest class would see a FIFTY percent increase in income taxes, for example. In fact, the graph you posted doesn't even actually do it justice, since Obama's tax cut for the lowest class is a lot more than 5 percent when you figure in the other parts of his plan that arent just related to the federal income tax ... but nevertheless, it's still a net INCREASE for the vast majority of Americans beginning in January 2011.

Jewish Atheist said...

sc:

There are plenty of sources for Obama saying he supports rolling back the tax cut for the top 1%. In the Philly primary, he pledged specifically to not raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

"Income growth for all groups but the richest is better under Democratic presidents, and it's even the same for the richest. Under Republicans, everybody does worse except the richest. These are the facts."

Link? Though I believe JFK of all people actually promoted supply-side-like economic tax cuts for the wealthiest, so I don't care about party affiliation as much as their economic policies.

Holy Hyrax said...

What are economists saying?

Jewish Atheist said...

ortho:

Previously

HH:

Good question. I know a majority of economists are Democrats, but I haven't seen any surveys of them that specifically ask that question.

htrouser said...

Does this include McCain's plan to include the cost of everyone's employer-based health insurance as taxable income? (Albeit off-set by a much smaller tax credit.)

asher said...

I think Biden was on a talk show recently and said something to the effect that raising taxes is a patriotic act. Or maybe he copied that idea from someone else

Stopped Clock said...

>$250000 is not the same as the top 1 percent. Obama himself has come out right out to say that he's going to let Bush's tax cuts expire; I've already posted the link. Yes it's possible to interpret it to mean only above >250K but I do not interpret it that way.

I'm in favor of McCain's plan; I'm at a low enough income level that it would benefit me. Yes, for upper middle class people it's a tax hike; I hear a lot of upper middle class Democrats complaining about it; funny how they stop caring so much about the poor when it's them instead of the ultra-rich who have to help out?

That said, I hope to be wealthier someday, and I'm sure I'll be complaining about high taxes then, regardless of who the president is. Taxes are not the only reason I am a Republican; I just came here because I saw this topic on my blog roll and felt I had to say something.

Jewish Atheist said...

SC:

Top 1% is even higher than $250,000. I don't think your link says what you think it does. Read it again.

Stopped Clock said...

Until Obama says "I am going to renew the Bush tax cuts on the middle and lower class," I am going to believe that he is not. Sure, he has his own tax cut, but it's a much smaller one. The net result of the switch is that lower and middle class people will pay higher taxes.

Orthoprax said...

JA,

"Previously"

Interesting. I don't quite know what to make of it. I've been doing some research and it seems as if historically the economy in general tends to do better under Democratic administrations than Republican. But what that means in terms of actual policies applied or other historical coincidences, I'm really not sure. It deserves more research.

avian30 said...

stopped clock,

You can find Obama's tax plan at the URL below:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Page 5 specifically addresses your concern about the Bush tax cuts.

avian30 said...

stopped clock wrote:

"I'm in favor of McCain's plan; I'm at a low enough income level that it would benefit me. Yes, for upper middle class people it's a tax hike; I hear a lot of upper middle class Democrats complaining about it; funny how they stop caring so much about the poor when it's them instead of the ultra-rich who have to help out?"

Can you provide a source for the statement that McCain plans to raise taxes on the upper middle class?

Tigerboy said...

If you want to boost the economy, give a tax break to people who will go out and spend the money. The worker bees.

Breaks for rich people do NOTHING to change their spending behavior. They are already doing exactly as they choose to do. They already have money. More money doesn't alter their financial picture in any significant way. It doesn't change their behavior. If you give Bill Gates another million dollars, does it compel him to go out and buy a new house? Probably not.

You need some kind of balance between wealth for the captains of industry and a little bit of help for the workers. Give a break to someone living paycheck-to-paycheck and, what happens? He and his middle class friends keep the economy moving.

After eight years of the middle class feeling like they can't get anywhere, whilst the rich, greedy Republicans keep rewarding their rich, greedy friends, the economy has turned to shit.

You have to throw the masses a bone every few years. The middle and lower classes will happily work themselves into their early graves, but they need to feel like they are making SOME kind of progress.

Eight years of tax breaks for rich people has SERIOUSLY demoralized the hard-working people of this country. They can't afford their own house. They can't afford gas for the smaller car they bought to replace the SUV. They can't go on vacation. They have lost huge value on their 401k, which wasn't even close to enough to retire on, even before the mortgage meltdown.

People are done. All but the most necessary spending has ceased.

George W. was able to use September 11th and this absurd war to his great advantage. Unbelievably, he scared enough people in order to get elected to a second term. The piggish Republican greed has gone on for exactly four years longer than it should have.

Now, the economy is fucked. Republicans need to chill the hell out about more tax breaks for their rich friends. Greed has brought the economy to a grinding halt.

And the taxpayers get to bailout all the greedy boys! Very nice.

Mr. Obama is going to brush off his top hat and tails, he is going to button-up his collar and shine his spats, he's gonna grab his walking stick, and he is going to do a nice soft-shoe right down Pennsylvania Avenue.

Financial conservatives can thank their ideological obsession with refusing to help anyone but their pals at the country club.

Q. Who drives the economy?
A. The people who need to get up and go to work every day, that's who. And they need a major break from Republicans.

Holy Hyrax said...

Interesting article

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

Obama's "tax plan" is basically welfare in disguise.

How else would you describe handing out checks to people who don't pay any income tax?

Tigerboy said...

Welfare is such a dirty word, isn't it?

And, how would you describe the handing out of checks to gigantic financial houses that destroyed the American economy?

AIG CEO Martin Sullivan drove his company into bankruptcy, played a large part in the crippling of our economy, leaves AIG with a severance package of $47 million, and the American taxpayer must foot the bill to save the company.

Single mothers receiving money for formula to feed their babies really bugs you, doesn't it?