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It's really despicable how right-wing media guys like Lou Dobbs and actual Congressman like John Campbell cater to these guys. (Watch Chris Matthews push for two minutes before Campbell finally admits that he believes Obama was born in the U.S.)
How many people think that if Obama were a white man born in Hawaii to a British, Christian father that this would still be an issue for these "birthers?"
14 comments:
This really is dumb. I was listening to Medved yesterday and he was yelling how "pathetic" these people are and how is he growing sick of all this.
Orly Taitz sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger and acts like Sarah Palin. Oh well...
Its no coincidence that so many on the extreme right are also members of organized religion.
It takes a special kind of "faith" to ignore all the obvious evidence in front of you, in favor of a predetermined conclusion.
The pattern is always the same: settle on an appealing conclusion no matter how shaky the evidence, first ignore and if pressed deny all information to the contrary, and incessantly repeat the newfound conclusion over and over again, confirming its legitimacy.
"How many people think that if Obama were a white man born in Hawaii to a British, Christian father that this would still be an issue for these "birthers?" "
Oh, I dunno. Being born in Panama to white Americans didn't stop so many people on the left claiming that John McCain wasn't allowed to be President that the Senate, in an absolutely unprecedented act, passed a special resolution asserting his right to stand (I hasten to point out that both senators Obama and Clinton behaved entirely properly in this regard, and indeed co-sponsored the resolution). Despite this, this whole debate continued to be a favoured conspiracy theory on the left and only faded away after the election (note too how it's whack job s who push the Obama theory but "legal scholars" who push the identical conspiracy theory with regard to McCain. If McCain had won, I have no doubt at all your side would still be pushing this story to try and de-legitimise his victory.
I very much doubt John Stewart ever made a sketch mocking the McCain smearers, but then it's fair game when the Left does this sort of stuff I suppose.
Random:
Interesting example! I didn't even know about that.
note too how it's whack job s who push the Obama theory but "legal scholars" who push the identical conspiracy theory with regard to McCain.
Well, that's kind of a major point, isn't it. The whack jobs on the right are pushing the theory that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii despite a birth certificate, two contemporaneous birth announcements, and no evidence that he was not in Hawaii. That's not really in the same ballpark as questioning whether a man born on a U.S. military base in Panama is a "natural-born citizen." That appears to be a legal question, not a conspiracy theory.
(Obviously, if it were ruled that being born to a friggin' United States Naval Officer on a U.S. base does not make one a "natural-born American" it would be a terrible miscarriage of justice, but at least there is a legal argument to be made.)
You also can't tell me you don't hear the racist rhetoric behind impassioned statements of "it's time to take back our country!" The birthers are playing into sentiments of Obama as Other, as not "one of us." I just don't see it as equivalent.
Kudos for a very good try on the analogy though!
"Well, that's kind of a major point, isn't it."
Which you appear to have missed. The point was about the double standards of the left, who are quite happy to dismiss a conspiracy theory as a baseless smear propagated by lunatics when used by the right against the left, but treat the identical conspiracy theory (sorry - "legal argument") seriously and it's proponents with respect when used by the left against the right.
"but at least there is a legal argument to be made"
Erm, no. Since the very earliest days of the Republic the phrase "natural born citizen" has been understood to refer to children of American citizens born overseas. The Naturalisation Act of 1790 explicitly defined the term this way.
"You also can't tell me you don't hear the racist rhetoric behind impassioned statements of "it's time to take back our country!""
Oh, good grief. It wasn't that long ago that you were criticisng me as a scaremonger for predicting that it wouldn't be long before criticism of Obama would be automatically labelled racist. Now you're doing it:-/ And no, I don't think it has anything to do with him being black, but a great deal to do with him pushing policies well to the left of the American mainstream.
"I just don't see it as equivalent."
Which is pretty much the problem I identified at the start of this post.
Random,
There is a difference between a conspiracy theory -- which is basically a belief flatly contradicted by the evidence -- and a legal argument, even a bad legal argument.
Also, the "birther" movement is much larger than any equivalent on the left AND has the tacit support of prominent blowhards like Lou Dobbs and the nod-nod-wink-wink support of actual Congresspeople like John Campbell.
Oh, good grief. It wasn't that long ago that you were criticisng me as a scaremonger for predicting that it wouldn't be long before criticism of Obama would be automatically labelled racist. Now you're doing it:-/
This is not criticism of Obama. This is insisting that he is a non-American despite all evidence to the contrary. Listen to the roar of that crowd when the woman starts ranting.
but a great deal to do with him pushing policies well to the left of the American mainstream.
He's a Democrat! Obviously he's to the left of the center. But he's not remotely more left than the Democratic mainstream.
To all the birthers in La, La Land, it is on you to prove to all of us that your assertion is true, if there are people who were there and support your position then show us the video (everyone has a price), either put up or frankly shut-up. I heard Orly Taitz, is selling a tape (I think it’s called “Money, Lies and Video tape”). She is from Orange County, CA, now I know what the mean when they say “behind the Orange Curtain”, when they talk about Orange County, the captial of Conspiracy Theories. You know Obama has a passport, he travel abroad before he was a Senator, fooled them too?
"
There is a difference between a conspiracy theory -- which is basically a belief flatly contradicted by the evidence -- and a legal argument, even a bad legal argument."
And what is the 1790 Naturalisation Act which, and I repeat, explicitly defined "natural born" to include children born overseas of American citizens if not "evidence" which "flatly contradicts" the conspiracy theory? The only legal argument - such as it is - rests on the idea that the Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of the act - for the perfectly straightforward reason that nobody has asked it to. No doubt because until recent times nobody would dream to understand the framer's intent was to deny citizenship to the children of people bravely and honourably serving the United States beyond it's borders.
"Also, the "birther" movement is much larger than any equivalent on the left AND has the tacit support of prominent blowhards like Lou Dobbs and the nod-nod-wink-wink support of actual Congresspeople like John Campbell."
Seriously, do you really think the only reason for this is higher ethical standards on the left? To put it bluntly the reason for it is that Obama is POTUS and McCain is a failed candidate with no prospect of running again. The McCain birthers don't need to bang on about it any more - their guy won. However I will repeat - back last year when the campaign was heating up the noise about this was so loud and persistent that the Senate took the unprecedented step of passing a resolution affirming McCain's right to run. Just because you never heard about the story doesn't mean it wasn't a big one - to make the obvious comparison, the head of steam around the Obama story never got anything like high enough to prompt this sort of intervention.
If McCain had by some chance actually won I have no doubt at all that the left's equivalent of Dobbs and Campbell (Michael Moore? Al Sharpton? I'm not really that well up on lefty whackjobs...) would be spinning exactly the same poison about McCain's legitimacy.
"This is not criticism of Obama. This is insisting that he is a non-American despite all evidence to the contrary."
And your side started it. It doesn't make it right, but it does mean the left doesn't get to take the moral high ground on this one.
The reason I'm interested in this story is because it provides a fascinating political experiment - in a single campaign season we had two candidates going head to head being attacked with what was essentially the same smear with an equivalent (lack of) grounding in truth. It provided a wonderful opportunity to test whether people who claim to be opposed to smears really are or only when they harm their own side, and will seek to find justifications for their own side's smears. Sadly, an awful lot failed the test.
Random:
You're being very clever, but it's not a defense of the right to ASSUME that the left would be just as bad were the situations reversed.
Seriously, do you really think the only reason for this is higher ethical standards on the left?
Um, no. It's got nothing to do with ethics. It's about being batshit insane. There are of course batshit insane people on the left, too, like the "truthers" -- those who think that Bush was behind 9/11, etc. But they are so much more marginalized it's not even close. No Democratic Congressperson gives them a nod and a wink. No major CNN (or MSNBC or any other major outlet) personality lends support to their "cause."
It's just not equivalent.
"You're being very clever, but it's not a defense of the right to ASSUME that the left would be just as bad were the situations reversed."
Well it's possible I suppose that they would have morphed into ideal Jeffersonian democrats, put aside their partisan bickering and rallied behind McCain as the democratically elected president, but frankly given their behaviour during the campaign it'a not the way I'd bet. And I repeat a point you have persistently ignored - the momentum on the left about this built up to the point that the US Senate felt it necessary to intervene in order to defend McCain. They don't do that to fend off a handful of isolated whackjobs.
"There are of course batshit insane people on the left, too, like the "truthers" -- those who think that Bush was behind 9/11, etc. But they are so much more marginalized it's not even close. No Democratic Congressperson gives them a nod and a wink."
"Congressman Dennis Kucinich has just announced that he will begin holding new hearings into 9/11 beginning in September because "the Commission Final Report... never resolved certain conflicts.""
Sounds like a "nod and a wink" to me. And this guy actually got people in your party to vote for him as president (not many thankfully as he was up against Hillary and The One, but still...).
Okay, good point about Kucinich.
I call them the graspers (at straws).
If Obama has a birth certificate why not just show it? Why not just end the whole thing and show the certificate instead of saying it exists but you cant see it?
Also why make fun of a woman that was smart enough to become a DDS, JD and a real estate agent? Doesn't that just mean she is really smart?
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