Thursday, July 23, 2009

BeyondBT Now Censoring Names and Links

The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the supression of ideas. -- Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

It used to be that my favorite baal teshuva blog BeyondBT would let some of my comments in, assuming I wasn't actively arguing for atheism, etc. Now they won't even do that.

In response to Tuesday's post in which a guest contributor asked the question How Can The Average Orthodox Jew Achieve Kiddush HaShem and Reduce Chillul Hashem? I posted the following comment (paraphrased from memory) which could not be less objectionable:

One of my favorite quotes from a rabbi:

"I wanted to change the world, but I realized it was too large of a task for one person, so I tried to change my community. That was also too hard, so I tried to change my family. That was also too hard, so I decided to try and change myself. And though it was very hard, I finally changed myself. And once I changed myself, I discovered my family changed, the community changed, and the entire world changed." - R' Israel Lipkin Salanter


(The quote has long been one of my favorites. Googling for the exact quote, I found it on blog-friend Ezzie's blog!)

It a quote from a rabbi, directly on point and not remotely subversive. I figured it would probably get through the moderators.

But no. I received a polite email saying that the comment was appreciated, but could I please change my name and remove the link to my blog? I wrote back saying that this is the name I respond to blogs with and the link is a link to my blog and I wasn't comfortable changing either one. They wrote back "ok" and then deleted the comment.

Blogs for people joining Orthodox Judaism hide opposing points of view from their readers. Blogs for people leaving Orthodox Judaism link to both supporting and opposing points of view. We think our arguments can hold up if allowed to compete. They think it's better to hide.

That's been pretty much my experience in the real world, too. Skeptics are excited to debate (when they're not afraid of repercussions for "outing" themselves.) Believers tend to become uncomfortable and defensive if you even hint that something they believe might not be true. Skeptics devour arguments from both sides. Most believers stick to arguments for conclusions they prefer. (They call this "chizuk," or "strengthening," as if "strengthening" a belief is a good thing.)

111 comments:

Holy Hyrax said...

1) sorry you went through that. Ezzie gave me that quote as well

2) I wonder how long it will take for this post to turn into a free-for-all-bash-fest?

jewish philosopher said...

I've been banned from about a million Jewish skeptic blogs.

I guess their afraid to hear other opinions.

Jewish Atheist said...

HH:

1) sorry you went through that.

*Shrug* It wasn't exactly traumatic, even if a psychologist might point out that this was a mini-reliving of all the times I wasn't allowed to be open and heard and taken seriously as an Orthodox child. ;-) But I'm a grown-up now. I can handle it. I just feel bad for the kids that have to live in that world today.

2) I wonder how long it will take for this post to turn into a free-for-all-bash-fest?

Don't know, but I do know one thing. I'll allow the Orthodox to defend and/or "bash" in these comments just as much as anyone else.

jewish philosopher said...

And in real life, I haven't yet met an atheist who wants to talk about religion.

Jewish Atheist said...

JP:

I've been banned from about a million Jewish skeptic blogs.

I guess their afraid to hear other opinions.


A lot of people put "hate speech" in a different category. It's not that they're afraid you'll convince anyone, I don't think, but that what you bring to the table is just so offensive that it a) completely derails any conversation you enter and b) gets people all riled up.

I've made the choice to allow you to comment freely even when you smear us as perverts or suggest that gays should be executed. I think any harm from that freedom is outweighed by removing the possibility that one might think anybody's afraid of your arguments.

Not to Godwin my own thread, but it's analogous to the different stances on hate speech taken by e.g. the United States and Germany. I understand where Germany is coming from, but I think the U.S.'s blanket freedom of speech is better all around. I model my commenting policy on that.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

Although I frequently disagree with JP, I have to agree on this one.

There are frum blogs where comments are censored, there are others where they are not.

There are atheist/skeptic blogs where any comment gets in. There are others that only want to hear people agreeing with them.

You cannot generalize.

Jewish Atheist said...

Garnel:

Obviously it's not 100% on either side, but the pattern is still pretty obvious.

Ezzie said...

Still my fave quote.

Off the Derech said...

On my own blog, I see no reason to censor, provided they're respectful.

jewish philosopher said...

The so called skeptics are the most close minded people on the Internet. Check this out:

http://havennotheaven.blogspot.com/

A club only for "skeptics". Is there any blog only for rabbis? Not that I know of. But skeptics are first of all ashamed of themselves and second of all don't want to hear any criticism.

The same is true of any addict. "Haven no Heaven" is like Michael Jackson locking out his family from doing an intervention.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287309,00.html

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20287851,00.html

As a rabbi, it's my job to promote truth and real happiness; to fight lies and harmful addictions.

I am prepared to do an intervention via blogging, however unpopular that may make me in some circles.

Jewish Atheist said...

JP:

HNH is more of a support group. I suppose one could argue that BeyondBT is one as well... but they're not limiting membership/commenting to BTs or even frum Jews, they're just censoring links and even words ("Atheist") they don't like.

jewish philosopher said...

I feel that skeptics are being a little over sensitive.

For example, when you were a teenager and several months went by and you didn't change your sheets or make your bed and your mother called you a "lazy slob", was that "hate speech"? If you ever find another woman willing to live with you, and she has to pick up your dirty socks and underwear, she might use those same words. Hate speech? Nazism?? Hardly. This is loving constructive criticism.

Skeptics need intervention, not support, just like Michael Jackson did. "Support" is called "enabling" in this case. And it will have a bitter end, as did with Michael.

And I stand ready to intervene.

bankman said...

if it was up to JP, he would "ban" skeptics and atheists from life itself, not just silly blogs.

he's said it several times that they deserve to be put to death, but nowadays, since we dont live in barbaric times, just ousted from the community.

Lovely. simply lovely.

jewish philosopher said...

"they deserve to be put to death"

I don't recall that. But since you're mentioning it, it is an interesting thought.

Anyway, I let you post on my blog, bankman. But don't make me impatient with you.

jewish philosopher said...

By the way, speaking of barbarism and killing, I wonder how Orthodox Jews fared under an atheistic government?

"Jewish leaders were arrested and executed, and Yiddish schools were shut down. Further persections and purges followed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union#Judaism

It looks like atheists could teach me quite a bit about intolerance and murder.

bankman said...

"I dont recall" - LOL!

you a politician?

are you suggesting that we can extrapolate the behavior of orthodox jews in new jersey to the validity of their religion?

jewish philosopher said...

I'm just pointing out bankman that intolerance and murder seem to come very naturally to atheist. Orthodox Jews - maybe not so much.

jewish philosopher said...

Atheists don't seem to just limit themselves to money laundering, unfortunately.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

bankman said...

"intolerance and murder seem to come very naturally to atheist"

allllllrighhhhttty then!

so lets be intollerant of and murder atheists! brilliant!

JP, question for you. why do you troll around atheist and skeptic blogs? just curious.

jewish philosopher said...

"so lets be intollerant of and murder atheists!"

Interesting how you keep mentioning killing people. My religion is actually kind of against murder.

"why do you troll around atheist and skeptic blogs?"

As a rabbi, it's my job to promote truth and real happiness; to fight lies and harmful addictions.

bankman said...

"As a rabbi" - you received semicha from moshe rabeinuu?

"it's my job to promote truth and real happiness; to fight lies and harmful addictions."

where does it say that in the torah?

"My religion is actually kind of against murder."

heretic! mois yoomas! you need to read the bible a bit more JP. you religion loves to kill people.

jewish philosopher said...

"you received semicha from moshe rabeinuu?"

I will happy to email you a pdf copy of my semicha.

"you religion loves to kill people."

Not one millionth as much as yours does.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html

If you want body count, nobody but nobody beats atheists.

jewish philosopher said...

"it's my job to promote truth and real happiness; to fight lies and harmful addictions."

where does it say that in the torah?

That's all that it says in the Torah. This is the entire Torah, all else is commentary.

jewish philosopher said...

In any case, bottom line, I just find it incredibly amusing to hear atheists complain about the intolerance of Orthodox Jews. What’s next? Is Gary Ridgway going start condemning alleged rabbinical sexual abuse?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Ridgway

Fawzia said...

I'm inclined to agree with Jewish atheist on this one.

There are two Muslim & anti Islam forums which I frequent-Faith Freedom International is a rabidly anti Islam site run by a fellow Iranian named Ali Sina, Ummah.com is an Islamic site.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.ummah.com/forum/


I don't much appreciate either site, both are pretty extremist in their views but I prefer Faith Freedom because it does allow every single Muslim to debate, whereas Ummah.com bans people for saying anything against Islam.

If Islam or Judaism, Christianity etc are so true, then why ban opposing viewpoints?

Btw, anyone who's interested can check out Faith Freedom, it has a wealth of info on Prophet Muhammad & Islamic history, though it presents all that in a very biased anti Muslim way.

I'd decided that I didn't believe in Allah & wasn't a Muslim long before I stumbled upon that site, but it helped me make my mind up & truly shocked me with some of the stuff Muhammad did.

jewish philosopher said...

I would like to respectfully request full access to the blog http://havennotheaven.blogspot.com/
I would like to perform the world's first group online intervention.

Thank you.

In the meantime, I request that all Jewish skeptics please stop mongering whores, snorting cocaine, smoking weed and swilling beer. Also, please stop surfing porn and masturbating.

Put your pants back on and behave like mentsches, not bums.

Thank you.

Julia said...

I still refuse to believe that JP is for real. It's just not possible.

But just in case, dude, your happiness is not my happiness and forced "happiness" is no happiness at all. If all you want is to spread true happiness, I suggest you leave everyone alone.

Michael said...

I'll give up "whores" and my coke habit but there's no way I'm having breakfast without a nice baby sandwich!

Off the Derech said...

I think JP is asking for it.

Yeshivish Atheist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yeshivish Atheist said...

Eh, why not. Let JP in. HNH is getting boring anyway, and it has been a while since anything really interesting happened. Why not have some amusement with our favorite kiruv clown? (Plus you can always boot him if things get too crazy)

onionsoupmix said...

JP, instead of doing interventions with HNH, work on your criminal rabbi friends in NJ and NY. They could really use your group interventions.

Also I'll be happy to work on limiting the whoring and cocaine snorting when you stop using goyishe blood in your matzos.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

I think JP is OTD.

Either that, or he is an off the derech guy looking to make frummies seem like extremist wackos.

But just for the record: I'm not JP.

SJ said...

JP is interested in HNH because there's people in HNH who are for gay marriage. XD

Fawzia said...

Jews are actually such a clever lot, perhaps they should stick to their strict old rules & not let anyone & everyone convert, it makes them look foolish! ;-)

JP really isn't someone who makes Judaism appealing to me & I personally prefer Judaism to the two later Abrahamic faiths.

Off the Derech said...

OSM wins the thread.

Off the Derech said...

Times like this I wish JA kicked the greatest trolls (Garnel, JP, and HH) out of his blog.

Holy Hyrax said...

OTD

Is it time for your nap again?

Off the Derech said...

You wish.

David Fryman said...

JA, you set up a misleading dichotomy between "skeptics" and "believers". A skeptic questions the conventional wisdom, pulls it apart, wrestles with it, and, at the end, sometimes rejects it and sometimes justifies it. Plenty of Orthodox Jews are skeptics and ba'alei teshuvah are, by definition.

But most people aren't skeptics, most atheists and most theists. The vast majority of people, even smart thinking people, do not question their basic, fundamental assumptions about the world, about justice, morality, truth, God, etc.

By setting up the debate as between "skeptics" and "believers", you imply that somehow the skeptics, (i.e. atheists) are more interested in debate. It's not true. Most people, most blogs, left or right, religious or secular, theist or atheist, are doctrinal and react rudely or mockingly to opposing views. It's unfortunate but human nature is what it is.

If your sample size are people who grew up frum and rejected it, the fallacy of generalizing should be obvious. People who question their upbringings are, of course, the people more likely to engage in serious, meaningful debate.

jewish philosopher said...

Frankly, I didn't expect that my impassioned call for honesty and sobriety would meet with great enthusiasm. For an addict, the addiction is a best friend, a lover, perhaps all he has in life. I even expected, correctly, some hint of hostility.

However, in the final analysis, how do we want to look in our later years?

Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Manson_Eurockeenes.jpg

Or like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Reb_Moshe_Feinstein.jpg

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed
Deut. 30:19
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0530.htm#19

Off the Derech said...

David, I disagree.
ALL people are naturally skeptics. Some merely fall hard for the bullcrap sold by religion; others are more fortunate.

jewish philosopher said...

OTD, perhaps you could enlighten me: If atheism is so smart, why are so many atheists pathetic losers?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/rational-response-squad.html

Off the Derech said...

If rabbis are so smart, why are so many of them so damn corrupt?

Go sell a few kidneys.

jewish philosopher said...

"why are so many of them so damn corrupt?"

First of all, how do you know they weren't secret atheists?

Second of all, how do you they were guilty? There has not yet been a conviction.

Third of all, in regards to most crimes Orthodox Jews are much better than other Americans.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

As far as my question is concerned, If atheism is so smart, why are so many atheists pathetic losers?, of course you're not going to answer it because there is no good answer. The truth is that atheism is just a flimsy excuse for an unhealthy lifestyle.

Atheists are at best whoremongers

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/more-reason-and-rationalism.html

or whores

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/rational-response-squad.html

at worst serial killers

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

and mass murders

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html

Stop the whoring and whoremongering. Stop killing. Be decent human beings.

Incidentally, I have just received word that Haven not Heaven has rejected my offer to intervene. What more can I do? At least I tried.

Off the Derech said...

How do you know we aren't secret frummies?

What do you do, memorize your blog all day?

Jack said...

As far as my question is concerned, If atheism is so smart, why are so many atheists pathetic losers?, of course you're not going to answer it because there is no good answer. The truth is that atheism is just a flimsy excuse for an unhealthy lifestyle.

Blah, blah, blah. It is easy to find examples of good and bad people on both sides.

But JA is right, there is a real push from the frum side to prevent contact from the outside world. That sort of insecurity is very telling.

jewish philosopher said...

"How do you know we aren't secret frummies?"

There are no secret frummies. Because no one is ashamed of being a Frummie.

"It is easy to find examples of good and bad people on both sides."

No it's not.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/05/godlessness-is-not-great-how-lack-of.html
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

"there is a real push from the frum side to prevent contact from the outside world"

There is a real push from clean and sober people to prevent contact from addicts.

cipher said...

I've made the choice to allow you to comment freely even when you smear us as perverts or suggest that gays should be executed.

That, JA, is why I no longer come here (not that I contributed much to begin with). I simply won't read, much less participate in, a blog that tolerates his presence. I came here today via a link from another blog.

I've tried to explain this to you on two other blogs, but either you haven't noticed, or chose to ignore me.

I'm actually encouraged to hear that JP has been banned from numerous blogs. As far as I was aware, the only blogger with the testicles to do it so far has been Off the Derech. I think a good case can be made that his presence on the internet constitutes a Chillul HaShem, and violates the injunction against engaging in any activity that defames the Jewish people in the eyes of the world.

If anyone knows his rabbi, I'd encourage that person to approach him and try to convince him to pull JP offline - although I can't imagine the rabbi isn't already at least partly aware. It's the wagons-in-a-circle mentality so prevalent among the frum (and Holy Hyrax, if you're still watching this thread, don't even bother - I'm not going to argue this with you).

jewish philosopher said...

"I simply won't read, much less participate in, a blog that tolerates his presence."

Do I sense another pervert in denial? Have you raped any little boys yet today? Like Arthur C Clarke, another famous atheist, used to do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke

Why do you feel a need to drag everyone else down into eternal damnation?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewish-heretics.html

jewish philosopher said...

I am promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions.

But it's only the truth that hurts.

cipher said...

I rest my case.

Do I sense another pervert in denial? Have you raped any little boys yet today?

The fact that someone so obsessed with sexual "perversion" is even allowed to bring up children is an indictment of our society.

This is all the troll-feeding I intend to do.

Really, JA - I'd be ashamed to harbor such a psychopath.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jewish philosopher said...

"is even allowed to bring up children is an indictment of our society"

I'm sure you'd shoot me in minute if you could. That's what the Soviets did with rabbis just a few years ago.

It's interesting that I don't see any need to hide behind an anonymous Internet connection to protect my identity. Unlike ALL atheist bloggers. Who apparently has something to hide?

And just for the record, I am not suggesting that gays be executed. I am demanding it!

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/11/anti-gay-pride.html

Do any other anonymous little cheese ball perverts, whore mongers and drug addicts care to comment? Or perhaps quit while your ahead?

Off the Derech said...

JP: Does even *one* frum blogger (other than Garnel) support you?

Didn't think so.

jewish philosopher said...

OTD: Did even *one* German student support Sophie Scholl?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl

If you were a German in 1940, I think it's obvious which side you would have been on.

Off the Derech said...

If anyone's the Nazi around here, I think we know who it is.

jewish philosopher said...

You have the same attitude OTD. Just go with flow, like a dead fish, do whatever everyone else is doing.

Sieg Heil, baby. The Fuhrer would be proud of you.

I can see that this is shaping up to be one of the most important threads in Internet history.,Good and Evil battle for the soul of mankind.

Off the Derech said...

You sure seem familiar with Nazi terminology.

jewish philosopher said...

My education is very very broad.

bankman said...

"I am promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions."

i still dont understand - you think your the batman of frumkeit.

just go back to pouring over all of those intricate gemorah's that do not apply to us, spend every waking moment trying to understand every halachic miutae. you get more s'char for that anyway.

talmud torah k'neged kulam. jut leave us poor bastards alone.

also - why would god make someone gay and require all us non-gays to execute him? that is silly.

jewish philosopher said...

"talmud torah k'neged kulam. jut leave us poor bastards alone."

Jeremiah didn't think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah#Biblical_narrative

And of course he met with some resistance as well.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1137.htm#15

"why would god make someone gay"

God does not make anyone wicked; that's our choice.

jewish philosopher said...

After all, why do we punish pedophiles? Aren't they born that way?

cipher said...

People, when you respond to him, you only feed his ego.

bankman said...

"Jeremiah didn't think so."

are you equating yourself to him? thats bold.

you should follow the teachings of your lithuanian rabbis (chuckle) and (chcuckle) sit and study all that holy stuff in gemorah. leave guys like jerimiah to do jerimmiah's work.

have you ever met a gay person? do you think they chose that? seriously? as a straight male (assuming you are) can you envision a scenario in which you would "choose" to be gay? c'mon.

jewish philosopher said...

"leave guys like jerimiah to do jerimmiah's work."

Unfortunately Jeremiah is dead. And as we know "In a place where there are no men, endeavor to be a man."

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter2-6.html

"have you ever met a gay person? do you think they chose that?"

Do pedophiles choose that? Does that make it OK to rape little kids?

bankman said...

so, pedophile = gay?

that makes no sense

jewish philosopher said...

Actually, a lot of gay men are pedophiles.

However the point is: just because someone has a sexual orientation doesn't make it OK.

bankman said...

we will not debate this now, but if you are a straight male, you KNOW it is not an "orientation" and if you've ever met or know a gay person you KNOW it was not their choice

many pedophiles have brown eyes. look out! LOL

jewish philosopher said...

"you KNOW it was not their choice"

The gay fairy just sticks their penis into another guy's anus? I don't think so.

bankman said...

rated PG please.....

so you know no one that is gay. i get it.

jewish philosopher said...

In any case, I suggest that all skeptics stop debating and just repent.

jewish philosopher said...

I see gays on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMftwQYgWhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jSqIxM-9KE&feature=related

bankman said...

you should expand your horizons and meet some people that are gay - you may be sursprised at what you find

jewish philosopher said...

Dig a little deeper and I think you'll be surprised.

DrJ said...

I go back and forth on the issue of comment moderation. I want to have free debate, but the discussion should be civilized and focused.

A similar medium is forums, and forums have rules which the moderator can enforce. There is not 100% freedom of speech.

So I think a fair compromise is to explicitly delineate in the rules of the blog, what is acceptable and what is not. A commentor can get warned and then blocked if he violates the rules.

A common rule is no hateful or bigoted speech and no personal insults. I think this would probably filter out 90% of JP's comments. The rest of his repetitive mantras can be ignored.

Of course if he posts a particularly provocative post I can respond on my blog.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jewish philosopher said...

What I would suggest is that all skeptic bloggers stop blogging and instead focus on repentance and atonement.

This process may be so stressful and painful, if done sincerely, that it will result in the death of the penitent, as we see from the case of R. Eleazar b. Dordia (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate ‘Abodah Zarah Folio 17a)
http://www.come-and-hear.com/zarah/zarah_17.html

So if I don't hear from any of you guys again, I'll assume that's what happened.

Good luck and an easy fast!

cipher said...

That's it for me; that's about all the crazy I can handle. I remained subscribed over the past 24 hours to see if anyone here would actually grow a pair and stand up to this guy (other than bankman trying to engage him rationally, which, as should be apparent, is utterly futile), and to see whether or not JA would respond to my claim that he's been ignoring me on other blogs. I figured neither would happen. In any case, I have better things to do than to read the ravings of a lunatic.

Oh, and HH - you remember our discussion about criminal insanity? I'd say this qualifies.

jewish philosopher said...

Cipher, procrastination is not helpful. Repent now.

bankman said...

you keep saying "repent"

repent to whom?

:)

an easy fast to you too - i cant wait till they rebuild that temple so we can slaughter a whole herd of sheep, goat and bull. yucky.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jewish philosopher said...

Which bank do you work for? Or should it be bankrupt man?

bankman said...

i think you should ask a shailah of your rav if what you are doing consititutes bitul zman and bitul toirah.

also, ask him about the nivel peh you like to spew.

i think lashes may be in order!

jewish philosopher said...

I think bankrupt man should learn how to use capital letters.

bankman said...

Why are you calling me names, JP? there must be some halacha that you are breaking by doing that.

Please ask the shaila, and get back to us. We all want to know what someone from Lithuania thinks about poting narishkeit on the Internet.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jewish philosopher said...

Bankrupt man, not only are you a God damned heretic who will burn in hell forever, but you're still missing a capital letter.

Please finish second grade and get back to me.

And to all the heretics out there, remember, there is still hope. As R. Eleazar b. Dordia died from the immense strain of his repentance, a voice called out 'Rabbi Eleazar b. Dordai is destined for the life of the world to come!'

bankman said...

JP - take your meds and chill.

i am surprised you believe in this burn in hell forever stuff. a little far fetched dontcha think?

question for you: do you believe that god created a world where 99.9% of the people on it will burn in hell forever? because thats how many people do not believe in your god.

just like i cant force myself to like someone, (either i do, or i dont) i cant "force" myself to believe something that makes no sense to me after years of digging and scrbbing.

jewish philosopher said...

Any sober and honest person who reviews the evidence I have laid forth on my blog will be absolutely convinced of the truth of Orthodox Judaism.

And bankrupt man, I hope I'm not detecting some hint of sarcasm in your comment.

bankman said...

belief boils down to what a "feel". the proofs are not conclusive. (please dont link to your blog about your "poroofs")

if i dont "feel" it after all these years, what do you suggest?

what would you tell a poor soul who, after dating someone for 2 years, simply does not love that person? kepp dating? keep trying?

I dont lover her! leave me alone!

jewish philosopher said...

Any sober and honest person who reviews the evidence I have laid forth on my blog will be absolutely convinced of the truth of Orthodox Judaism.

Be sober and honest.

onionsoupmix said...

as an fyi, I did contact JP's rabbi who informed me that he cannot convince JP to tone down his rhetoric but wants nothing to do with the blog and does not want his name associated at all with JP's blog. So JP is doing all this on his own, shockingly, he is not supported by legions of lithuanian rabbis as he would have us believe.

bankman said...

I've done all that. I am not "convinced" as you say, or as I say, I do not "believe"

now what?

jewish philosopher said...

"I did contact JP's rabbi"

Lie.

"I've done all that."

I don't believe you and therefore you will burn in hell.

DaveK said...

JP,
I have seen you all over the internet and I alternate between laughter, shock and disgust. I feel I already know what your response will be, but still, a few points:

1. In the real world, arguments are not made by merely footnoting to another argument, i.e. "I am right because of what Mr. X says over here". Try giving arguments in your own words without personal insults.

2. Greater "Rabbis" then you have allowed that there are no "proof" to the divinity of the Torah. Rather they accept that much of Judaism is based on merely faith. You so called "proofs" have been repeatedly disproved by people all over the world many times over.

3. Jewish Atheists generally post anonymously because they are afraid of people like you. Also, because, although they want to live their lives as they see fit, they know that their orthodox communities would not accept their choice and would, in many cases, cut off contact and friendship.

4. You mistake atheism for Communism. You are far more violently inclined, merely by your own statements regarding killing so-called sinners, then any atheists that I have come across in person or the internet.

5. I am an atheist and I do not do drugs, smoke, have sex promiscuously or engage in other dangerous behaviors. I am in fact married for over 11 years and have what are universally acknowledged as two wonderful well adjusted children.

6. What is so disturbing about you is that you post all sorts of personal information about yourself including your address and PICTURES and NAMES of your children!

That is all for now.

SHOUT OUT TO OSM!!!! You always make me crack up!

Fawzia said...

J.P.:"I don't believe you and therefore you will burn in hell."

I though Hell in Judaism doesn't involve eternal burning?

You sure you're Orthodox Jewish?

jewish philosopher said...

DaveK, it's so refreshing to get advice from a "Occupation: Money Hungry Lawyer".

"Try giving arguments in your own words"

Providing sources is a bad thing? OK, got it.

"Greater "Rabbis" then you have allowed that there are no "proof" to the divinity of the Torah."

How do they explain the punishment for not observing the Torah? You can just say you don't have faith. No Orthodox rabbi would agree with this.

"You mistake atheism for Communism."

All Communists are atheists. Not all atheists are Communists. Take Reinhard Heydrich for example.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html


"You are far more violently inclined, merely by your own statements regarding killing so-called sinners, then any atheists that I have come across in person or the internet."

Not really.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html


"I am an atheist and I do not do drugs, smoke, have sex promiscuously or engage in other dangerous behaviors. I am in fact married for over 11 years and have what are universally acknowledged as two wonderful well adjusted children."

So are most other atheists whose identity is unknown and cannot be confirmed.

"What is so disturbing about you is that you post all sorts of personal information about yourself including your address and PICTURES and NAMES of your children!"

Why? Are you masterbating all over them? That's not my problem.

More seriously, no child has ever been abducted or abused because a stranger saw his photo somewhere on the web or in a newspaper, magazine, advertisement, modeling catalogue. It doesn't happen like that.

Do your kids go to public secular schools? Now that is extremely, extremely dangerous for many reasons. You may as well shoot them right now and finish it.

"I though Hell in Judaism doesn't involve eternal burning?"

Think again.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewish-heretics.html

jewish philosopher said...

By the way, if you want to check out a famous atheist whose life is well documented and who is far from the worst of the bunch, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon

It makes you wonder a little about the motives of people like the blogger failedmessiah.com, who spend their entire lives panicking “OMG – look at this! A rabbi bounced check!!! Judaism is a big scam!!” but who seem to have no trouble accepting atheism as being perfect.

Heshy Fried said...

I am not going to read all 99 comments - based on my own experience with blogging - its quite hard to find an uncensored orthodox read forum or talk back section on the web. Hashkafa, Beyond BT, Yeshiva World News and most of the orthodox run blogs out there censor to high hell - any opposing "heretical" OJ is not the right way rhetoric and it pisses me off.

If the orthodox Jewish world were so confident that their way was the right way and everyone else was wrong - you would think they would welcome the chance to "shlug" people up, no?

jewish philosopher said...

I do.

Jack said...

Any sober and honest person who reviews the evidence I have laid forth on my blog will be absolutely convinced of the truth of Orthodox Judaism.

JP,

You would be terrified to find out just how wrong you are. You adopt such a rigid stance because in your narrow provincial world you cannot see any other way to live.

Your logic is flawed and poorly thought out. If God slapped you across the face you'd thank him and ask for another. That is not a compliment, just recognition that you prefer to live an unthinking and unquestioning lifestyle.

Difference is that most of us could care less about how you live. The only reason to be concerned is that you want to establish a Jewish Taliban.

Anyhoo, you are a real peach of a fellow. Hope you had an easy fast. Revelation is coming sooner than you think.

jewish philosopher said...

"because in your narrow provincial world you cannot see any other way to live."

For the first 16 years of my life I was a gentile, since then I have been a Jew for 32 years.

I studied 11 years in secular public schools and 9 years in Orthodox seminaries.

My adopted parents were Lutheran, my biological brother is agnostic, my wife is an Orthodox Jew.

At home in Wesley Hills, NY my friends are all Orthodox Jews and at work in Manhattan my friends are all secular.

I have studied both Darwin and the Talmud.

I really don't know of anyone less "narrowly provincial".

Frankly, I just love all these "Jewish skeptics" who pine away "I wish I was a gentile". They have no idea what that means. I was a gentile; I do know.

E-Man said...

JA- I am sure you are not even checking this comment section, but I wanted to say it is nice of you not to censor any of the comments. However, censoring the comments does allow the owner of the blog to direct the conversation. This Baal Teshuva blog might want to just focus on things that will help other Baalei Teshuva, not confuse them. Judaism is a hard religion to understand. One can not just read the bible superficially and think they know what Judaism is all about. There are literally centuries of literature written on Judaism. For a Baal Teshuva who believes in G-D and wants to be jewish all an atheist's input would give them is confusion.

For instance, do you think it would be productive for me to have comments that says "Judaism is false, the archeological evidence proves it to be false." This comment being on a post about the Rambam and Maaseh Merkavah.

I do not think it would be productive.

However, if I talk about archeological evidence and Judaism then that would be appropriate.

I mean think about it, does JP take your blog comments in a direction that you appreciate or that annoys you? If it is your blog then shouldn't you direct the conversation in a direction that you would want to participate in?

jewish philosopher said...

I think I definitely make things a likely more lively.

If I did not exist, skeptics would have to invent me.

Tigerboy said...

Once again JP is confused.

Skeptics don't invent characters that don't exist. That is the sort of thing we oppose.

jewish philosopher said...

Is one skeptic posting under six fake names called "inventing".

Jack said...

JP,

You don't get it, but I didn't expect you to. It is ok.

OSM said...

JP, ask avi senter what he thinks about the crap you spew forth on your blog. He's the rabbi I contacted and he clearly wants nothing to do with your blog.

Anonymous said...

I'm about to make a subtle distinction. Read carefully.


It's not that links to athiest's websites (or the like) are not welcome because observant Jewish sites are worried about losing some of their group.

More probably, it is because being exposed to heresy is damaging to a neshama.

Anyone that has Internet access has unlimited information on all kinds of heresy - and a ton of Torah True information as well.

Each person can choose how much heresy to let onto their screens - but it would likely be a violation of "lifnei iver" to link to an athiest's site from a forum of observant Jews.

clapclap said...

Just this week I was banned from the anti-haredi, anti-Orthodox Failed Messiah website.

Why? Because he couldn't handle my criticsm of his biased "reporting."

Read and judge for yourself. This is how it went down (my name is clapclap)

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/09/hasidic-newspaper-cuts-off-presidents-head-345.html

The irony is that in the very post where he attacks a newspaper for practicing censorship, he censors me!