Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Religious Brainwashing

How to get a child to grow up believing that God wrote the Five Books of Moses:

Immerse him in Orthodox Judaism from day one. Spend thousands of dollars sending him to Orthodox schools. Insulate him from non-Jews and non-religious Jews. Shield him from any mention of the documentary hypothesis. Assure him that commentators like Rashi and Tosfos know more about the Torah than any secular Biblical scholar. Make him believe that Orthodoxy is dependent on certain beliefs and that if he leaves Orthodoxy, he loses his community. And maybe your love, as well. Expose him to speeches almost every day about the beauty and necessity of the Torah. Have him study the Talmud for years and insist that the Talmud's analysis of every verse as if it were dictated by God is not only true, but was also given to Moses at Sinai.

How to get a child to grow up believing that the Five Books were written by men:

Don't send him to an Orthodox school.

Any questions?

71 comments:

CyberKitten said...

JA said: Any questions?

Just one.... *What* Five books? [looks confused]

G said...

How to get a child to grow up believing that the Five Books were written by men:

Don't send him to an Orthodox school.

Any questions?
--------------
Just one.
Do you realize how out of touch with reality that statement is?

Jewish Atheist said...

CK:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.


G:

How so? I'm assuming of course that the child isn't otherwise getting the brainwashing at home or anything. My point is that without intensive Orthodox instruction and immsersion, nobody believes that God wrote the five books.

Do you disagree with that?

Anonymous said...

JA,

How do you define brainwashing?

Meyer E.

dbs said...

JA,
Yup, that's pretty much work.

CyberKitten said...

JA said: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

Thanks. I honestly couldn't have named them even with a gun to my head!

[laughs]

Jewish Atheist said...

Meyer E:

How do you define brainwashing?

In this case, I'm referring to the total-immersion into one specific belief system combined with social pressure and a significant degree of separation from the outside world.

If atheists sent their kids to atheist-only schools and taught them about atheism every single day and let it be known that if their kids stopped being atheists, they would have to leave their communities and their parents would be very disappointed in them, and if they were not allowed to read theistic-leaning sources, then it would be comparable.

Ezzie said...

Explain kiruv.

Jerry said...

The post is just an odd way of saying that Mormons give birth to Mormons and Orthodox Jews give birth to Orthodox Jews (right down to sub-subsect), and it's neither genetic nor a coincidence. Religion is socialization; it has nothing to do with being compellingly true, or even beleivable at all.

And Ezzie: kiruv is socialization too. That's why it works best (or really at all) when the person is taken out of their environment, away from the people they know (their social environment). And even then its success rate is extremely low, recovery rates high, and the successes are full of people with serious emotional issues.

Anonymous said...

JA,

I do agree with you that thiest brainwash their kids to some degree. I don't think Atheist are so innocent, They were the ones that pushed creationism out of the public school system. In a sense the public school system brain washes kids with the evolution theory and won't allow creationism to be taught. I understand the law of separation of church and state and agree creationism should not be taught in schools, but it is still brainwashing.

Meyer E.

Anonymous said...

Meyer, E., Does it count as brainwashing that the school system teaches a round Earth, and won't allow flat Earthism to be taught? If not, why not?

Anonymous said...

The earth being flat was taught in schools until it was proven false. Creationism has not yet been proven false.

Meyer E.

Anonymous said...

"Creationism has not yet been proven false."

I see. There's nothing more to discuss with you.

Jewish Atheist said...

Explain kiruv.

My assumption is that people who become baalei teshuva come to the religion first and to the belief that God wrote the five books afterwards, although I'm sure there are exceptions. Also, as Jerry alluded to, many BTs do go through some pretty intense "brainwashing" at the beginning of their journey. (Have you ever been to a BT yeshiva?)


Meyer E:

I think there's a difference between not teaching something you think is false (e.g. creationism) and working hard to create an environment in which children are hardly ever subjected to other ideas and in which they are taught that certain beliefs are literally forbidden.

Creationism has not yet been proven false.

Only in the sense that heliocentrism hasn't been proven false.

Anonymous said...

I am not saying creationism is true, but there is still a possibility it can be.

The earth being flat there is no possibility.

Oh and btw they do teach in public schools the reason why scientist thought the earth was flat but don't allow to teach creationism and why it might be false.

and for the record I am agnostic.

Meyer E.

Anonymous said...

"Only in the sense that heliocentrism hasn't been proven false."

I think you mean geocentrism. ;-)

Anonymous said...

JA,
I agree with you, the extent that religious people brainwash there children is extreme. I just think public schools should be a little more open on discussing creationism even if its false, since its a widely accepted theory, hypotheses or guess. I don't think its harmful to discuss the idea of the universe being created by I.D.

Meyer E.

Holy Hyrax said...

>How so? I'm assuming of course that the child isn't otherwise getting the brainwashing at home or anything. My point is that without intensive Orthodox instruction and immsersion, nobody believes that God wrote the five books.

What an insane but marvelous epiphany.

Lets try this:

How do you prevent a child from believing the world is round or learn to read, or do any science?

Don't send him to school. I'm assuming of course that the child isn't otherwise getting the brainwashing at home or anything.

Holy Hyrax said...

>My assumption is that people who become baalei teshuva come to the religion first and to the belief that God wrote the five books afterwards

What does that mean?

Anonymous said...

"I just think public schools should be a little more open on discussing creationism even if its false, since its a widely accepted theory, hypotheses or guess"

They're welcome to do that--in a comparitive religion class, but not in a science class. A huge percentage on Americans belive in UFOs and aliens, and thought it shouldn't be taught in an astronomy class, and can certainly be taught in a social studies class.

Anonymous said...

Teaching creationism in public schools under any subject is illegal and can result in termination. Teaching about Ufo and aliens is not.

Meyer E.

Anonymous said...

> How to get a child to grow up believing that God wrote the Five Books of Moses:

Don't send him to an Orthodox school.
Don't give him any religious education at all.
Don't give him any spiritual sustenance whatsever.
Let him free in an uncaring world.
Allow him to travel the world.
He gets grabbed by Chabad someplace.

Any questions?

Jewish Atheist said...

HH:

How do you prevent a child from believing the world is round or learn to read, or do any science?

Only the first is relevant. And here's the difference. You can tell a kid ONCE that the world is round, say when he is about 12, and he's going to believe it... and keep on believing it when he finally makes it out into the real world. Tell a kid ONCE that the Torah was written by God and there's no way he's going to keep believing it once he gets into the real world without all that other brainwashing that goes with it.


Anonymous:

Allow him to travel the world.
He gets grabbed by Chabad someplace.


Good point.

Holy Hyrax said...

Ridiculous.

Thats because your education of the world being round ENDS with saying it once. But if you kept on discussing all matters related to it such as gravity and orbits and axis and seasons, etc. you would need to bring it up. Judaism continues on with many laws and stories that all fall back on the issue of a God given Torah.

You know what JA, here is an exercise. Lets assume, we found evidence finally the torah is done by one author and dating back to Moses (clearly we can't have evidence of God, because that cant be proven). And you are totally convinced of is authenticity as once you were. Now, the keys to the Jewish People are in YOUR hands. HOW do you keep it thriving according to this one time covenant? How do you continue on the chain to the next generation?

Tigerboy said...

The Christians teach their defenseless children that they are required to form a "personal relationship" with an imaginary, invisible being. They must love this invisible being and converse with him.

OR ELSE!

They will be dragged off to a lake of fire were they will be tormented by demons forever.

And, if they so much as THINK that there is no God, same thing: Eternal Hellfire.

This is told to small, innocent children who are just beginning to figure out how the world operates.

How is this not an example of severe psychological torture?

I would think that the child-abuse for which priests are more famous would be LESS psychologically damaging than these nightmares of damnation from Mom and Dad.

Brainwashing.

Anonymous said...

Grettings from Santiago de Chile,

También soy un judío ateo.

Shmuliko

Theresa said...

I would prefer the public schools not try and teach creationism. They'd probably do a piss poor job at it and leave my children thinking that that is what they have to believe to be Christian. Religious things are best not taught in a public school science class. I think having kids taught by an extreme fundamentalist would be worse for their religious belief than just having religion left out of the creation discussion.

This goes both ways. They shouldn't teach against creationism or tell their students that evolution precludes the input of a creator or tell their students that they have to believe evolution happened. Just that they have to learn it.

Jewish Atheist said...

HH:

You're missing the basic point, which is that hardly anybody believes that God wrote the Torah without having the kind of intense immersion in Orthodox Judaism that I described, just as hardly anybody believes in the Book of Mormon without an intense immersion in Mormonism.

That's just not true of other things such as "the world is round." One doesn't need an intense immersion in the world of science to believe that. One doesn't need to be shielded in his formative years from arguments from the Flat Earth Society. One doesn't need to listen to speeches several times a week about the greatness of the Round Earth. One doesn't have to be implicitly threatened that if he believes the Earth is flat, then he will lose everything.

Jewish Atheist said...

HH:

Now, the keys to the Jewish People are in YOUR hands. HOW do you keep it thriving according to this one time covenant? How do you continue on the chain to the next generation?

I'm not in this post talking about whether the immersion/brainwashing is intentional or even bad.

G said...

My point is that without intensive Orthodox instruction and immsersion, nobody believes that God wrote the five books.

Do you disagree with that?
---------
Yes.
It's called group-think, or majority rule, or going with the flow, or doing what Dad did etc.

Do you honestly beleive that every single person who attends a synangogue, church, mosque or any other religious place of worship (and countless who do not) that beleives the bible is the word of God has gone through some manner of intense orthodox education?!

Please!

jewish philosopher said...

How do you get a child to become a brain surgeon: send him to private prep schools, send him to a top college, send him to medical school, arrange for him an internship, spend a ton of money, etc. etc.

How to make your child a homeless bum: do nothing.

Any questions?

Anonymous said...

"Teaching creationism in public schools under any subject is illegal and can result in termination."

You are wrong. It can be taught, just not as science. Those classes on Greek religion/mythology don't get anyone fired, do they?

Holy Hyrax said...

>that beleives the bible is the word of God has gone through some manner of intense orthodox education?!

Exactly. Not only that, this stupid lie that the only way to pass on this belief is by closing off the young from the world both non Jews and non religious Jews is a lie. Ever hear of schools like Miamonides and the students that go there?

And saying they purposfly SHIELD them from DH makes as much sense as shielding them from mormonism.

rationalrussian said...

JA,

You can make that claim about anything... How about Santa? All kids are taught that Santa Claus is the bringer of gifts. Kids believe it until they are taught otherwise.

Non-belief seems to be just as bad, and some people call it "free-thinking" but pretty much indoctrinate kids as well.

Really, it's a catch-22.

Jewish Sceptic said...

I agree with JA's post entirely.

For the record, I once had a Rebbe who said 'what's wrong with brainwashing?!' and to a degree I see his point: every other belief system brain-washes their adherents to believe certain things. Companies spend millions on adverts - and lets face it, what is that but brand-indoctrination and brain-washing?

In short, everything we do from the clothes we wear to the food we eat to the movies we see, to the philosophies we may hold...it all comes down to someone trying to control what you do.

If that's the case then 1) why should religion be any different and (2) what's wrong if atheists buy into the brain-washing thing too?

Tigerboy said...

There is a vast difference between teaching children information for which there is good evidence, and teaching children mythology for which there is no evidence.

If you want to teach your child creation myths that run absolutely counter to universally accepted science, then do it at home. Or in a private school.

You do your child a huge disservice.

Teaching your child that there is no evidence for a creator-god is NOT brainwashing. It is a fact.

Anonymous said...

aon 6:29 PM:

There are multiple math paradoxes that are not logically solveable. Should they not be taught in a math class?

Tigerboy said...

Math doesn't lead to jihad.

Anonymous said...

Tiger boy,

Science goes hand in hand for the most part with creationism. Evolution does not contradict with creationism it may very well fit in (ieg: the Bible states G-d created man from dust.) The part that contradicts is how nothing came about to something. Science does not have good evidence yet for this, it still remains a theory. Creationist believe it was the work of an intelligent designer and there is no evidence either.
G-d cannot be proven today,
but rember 500 yrs ago people thought it was impossible to fly a air plane, physicist universiabley stated it was impossible, there was no evidence not even good theories. People still denied it even after planes took flight.

Tigerboy said...

"Science goes hand in hand for the most part with creationism."

Claiming knowledge about that which is unknowable is the ANTITHESIS of the scientific method. This is exactly why religious ideas have no business in a science classroom. A philosophy classroom, sure. A science classroom, never.

Do we all understand what is meant by the term "scientific theory"?

"In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation.

It follows from this that, for scientists, "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition.

For example, it is a FACT that every single apple ever dropped on Earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet. It is a THEORY that all apples will do so. The theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are understood as statements which would be true independent of what people think about them.

According to the National Academy of Sciences:

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory."

In everyday language a theory means a speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by empirical observations gathered over time.

Empirical evidence for a creator-god?

Zero.

BEAJ said...

They shouldn't teach against creationism or tell their students that evolution precludes the input of a creator or tell their students that they have to believe evolution happened.
*********************
A creator does not have to mentioned and isn't mentioned either way when the facts of evolution are taught.
But evolution is fact, there is not one shred of evidence that contradicts or falsifies the overall theory.
That being said, rational students will understand for themselves that evolution happened and is happening today. They may take it a step further and conclude that the world makes perfect sense without having to put God in the equation, though many will still need to put God in the equation. The latter conclusions have nothing to do with what is or should be taught in science class.

JA, no child would believe in Jesus if they weren't taught about him (aka brainwashing).

Anonymous said...

Tigerboy,
I Agree With You. Something being created out of nothing is not a scientific theory.

It is a hypotheses.

CyberKitten said...

Anon said: Something being created out of nothing is not a scientific theory. It is a hypotheses.

What do you mean by 'something being created out of nothing'? Do you have an example to clarify that?

BEAJ said...

The only ones who say something came out of nothing are creationists.
God was created out of nothing, or is it that he/she/it was always around somehow?
And then he magically poofed everything into existence. Something from nothing.

Tigerboy said...

But, in that scenario, it wasn't truly nothing. A super-complex being in the mix means that it was already something.

How was that something created? It's an infinite regression.

IN REALITY, greater complexity forms from lesser complexity. A super-complex being as a starting point is illogical.

A super-complex being that has no starting point is illogical.

Rebekah said...

The concept of a living human being is incredible. Everything we need to live has been provided. We have food, water and air to breathe. Everything we need for survival is here, and not one thing has been bypassed for it. When you really look at the awesomeness of our world, space, our oceans and living creatures on land and in the air; you must acknowledge that you are not capable of anything intelligent, or even thinking intelligently. God is way to big for you to understand, the reason why you are confused is because you are not like him, nor do you think like him, nor are your ways like his way's. But one day you will meet him, and you will give account for your sins. God has poured out his spirit upon all flesh. You know right from wrong. If i took money from your wallet you would call me a liar. If I killed your sister or mother you would call me a murderer. What does God call you? He's the one you should fear. He sent Jesus to die for our sins, no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

Tigerboy said...

Rebekah:

Do you deny that had you been adopted and raised by Buddhists that you would most likely believe very different things?

BEAJ said...

Yes Rebekah, we have all we need to live, that is how our species made it so far and why there is no life on other planets in our solar system (at least known to date).
In fact, cockroaches have everything they need to survive as well.
And prior to human beings evolving on this planet, dinosaurs had everything they needed on this planet to survive.

None of this leads to God.

Rebekah said...

First I want to clarify that I don't plan to argue or fight except for your very soul.
Regardless of what you believe you are a sinner.
The 10 commandments prove that you are. There is a 100 % chance you have stolen, lied, lusted after another human being, and even hated someone. This makes you guilty of breaking God's laws. Our lives are surrounded by laws and when broken there is always a price to pay. Gravity is a law that you cannot break. If you choose not to believe it and jump you will fall and crash. If you died today, you would go to hell, you are gambling your very own soul because you say there is no God. How much would you sell your eyes for? 1 million, 2 million? Maybe you would sell them cheaper than that since you don't value your life. But I don't believe that, I believe that you do value your life therefore you need to seriously consider the road your going down. You could die tonight, or tomorrow and then its to late. You will stand before God and give an account of your unbelief. You have a debt with God because of your sins, and Jesus paid the debt that you could not pay. He's offering you eternal life, but you reject it. You reject the very one who gave you your life.

CyberKitten said...

Thank you rebekah for proving JA's point.... twice.

elishajan said...

Rebekah:
I don't live my life according to fairy tales.

All living things adapt to their environment, if they can't, they become extinct. No deity necessary.

Keep reading Kirk Cameron's nonsense. It is NOT true that we all have stolen, lied or hated someone. And if we have, we ask forgiveness from the PEOPLE we have hurt, not a fictitious deity.

And you are correct; I do value my life. It's the only one I have. I will not waste one iota of it thinking about and perpetuating a fantasy land.

abandoning eden said...

Tigerboy- "Math doesn't lead to jihad."

Yeah but darwin led to social darwinism which led to the holocaust.

And math is used to program missiles and build nuclear weapons. Is 'jihad' worse than completely wiping out two Japanese cities? I bet more people died on that day than have died in the past 100 years of 'jihad'.

Anything can be twisted and used for evil. Science too. Too ignore that is making a huge mistake, and to assume that if we did away with religion everything would be peachy (which it wouldn't, people would find other reasons to kill each other).

elishajan said...

And there is nothing wrong with lust. It is your repressed religion that teaches such ridiculous ideas.

CyberKitten said...

abandoning eden said: Yeah but darwin led to social darwinism which led to the holocaust.

Well... I think I've heard it all now. Charles Darwin as the Architect of the Holocaust... If only he hadn't written Origin of Species then the Nazi's wouldn't have even conceived of mass exterminations. I mean it's not like one human group has ever viewed another group as sub-human or inhuman before then..... and used that as an excuse to go on a killing spree.....

Tigerboy said...

abandoning eden-

Let me see if I understand your point.

You seem to be saying that knowledge about science and math leads to evil behavior.

And religion is necessary to mitigate that evil behavior.

Is that your point?

Mankind seeks knowledge and will continue to do so. That's a good thing. I enjoy knowing the reality of the situation in which I find myself, don't you?

Darwin's observations about evolution, which, over a hundred years later, are universally accepted as quite astute, did NOT lead to mass murder.

Knowledge about how the world operates, how the universe operates, does NOT lead to violence. Shit happens, but knowledge doesn't cause it.

The knowledge that an atom can be split doesn't cause the explosion. The knowledge that an atom can be split is a TRUE feature of reality. That true feature of reality WILL be discovered by somebody, at some point in history. Knowledge isn't to blame. Knowledge is inevitable.

Knowledge is TRUTH, my friend. You can't hide from what's true.

Neither can you blame the TRUE features of reality for man's bad behavior.

Religion, however, does lead directly toward conflict. Strong opinions about things that are by definition UNKNOWABLE can lead in no other direction.

I prefer knowledge that is provable. I prefer truth.

abandoning eden said...

I'm not saying that science necessarily leads to bad behavior. But your statement that "Math doesn't lead to jihad" seems to assume that religion shouldn't be taught in public schools because it can lead to people acting evil, but math is ok because nothing bad comes from math. But it seems to me the majority of bad things in this world - the things directly used for mass killing- comes from math.

I'm actually not arguing against your main point- I don't believe religion should be taught in schools, and I am in fact a raging atheist. And I'm not arguing math shouldn't be taught in schools. I'm just saying the basis of your argument here is false, as there are plenty of things taught in school that can lead to mass killings, but we teach them anyways. Therefore, not teaching religion because it may lead to violent outcomes (and no religion that I know of actually preaches violence in its basic tenants) is not a valid reason for not teaching it in schools. There are plenty of other GOOD reasons, including that it teaching tenants that are up for debate, not based on science, and many parents may not believe, and probably would not teach a critical view of these religions, and also that the religious beliefs of all children in public school are not uniform, the state shall have no established religion, etc.

and cyberkitten- I wasn't saying that Darwin was the architect of the holocaust, so thanks for setting up a straw man. But social darwinism theories WERE based on Darwin's theories of evolution, AND was the basis of the Nazi's "ethnic cleansing" based on "survival of the fittest" etc.
I suggest Reading about what I'm talking about before declaring that it can't possibly be true. When you blindly defend Darwin you're as bad as people who blindly defend their religion.

Tigerboy said...

Darwin doesn't need defending. He was merely observing what was there for all to see. And he was right.

Do you blame Galileo and Copernicus for pointing out that the Earth is not the center of the universe? If you fall down the stairs, is it Newton's fault? The truth behind these scientific concepts exists outside of man's interpretation.

I'm sorry you are having such severe math anxiety. Personally, I don't enjoy math, but I don't blame the world's problems on it. Math and Science are objective studies. They do not ask you to believe in them, or not. You can take any concept, in Math or Science, and demonstrate it. If there is no evidence for the truth of a concept, it's a bad concept.

I never said Religion shouldn't be taught in school. It is a mainstay of Philosophy. I said it has no business in a Science classroom. Religion makes claims about the nature of the universe, claims for which there is no empirical evidence. We shouldn't teach fiction as fact. It certainly has no place being taught AS Science to young children in a public school. I would argue that teaching creation-myths to young children, in any setting, is a bad idea.

"there are plenty of things taught in school that can lead to mass killings, but we teach them anyways."

Where did you go to school? Pol Pot Elementary? Was "Bomb-making 101" an elective? At the age where most kids are trying to figure out which is more likely, the animals boarding Noah's ark two-by-two, or basic evolutionary principles, I think it is probably best to stick to things we know to be true.

As for ethnic cleansing, let's blame the Nazis for their own actions, and not Mr. Darwin. The ways in which other people misconstrued his theory have no bearing on it's veracity.

Rebekah said...

God created the heavens and the earth.

He said "let us make man in our image"

You cannot prove that God doesn't exist, If you could you would be boasting about it. All some of you have is a mans theory, Darwin is just another man looking for a reason not to believe in God.
The fool in his heart says there is no God.
The science of any living thing, is to awesome for any man to decide how it came to be. Only a living God has the capability to create and design life. Put your trust in God and our Savior Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul.

BEAJ said...

Darwin wasn't looking to disprove God.
I can't disprove God, just like I can't disprove that there is a Leprechaun sitting in the center of the Sun.
There is no evidence for either though.

And there is a very good chance that Jesus didn't even exist, and was just a product of Paul or someone else's imagination.

Not one word was written about Jesus by contemporary historians.

Josephus was the first, 50 years after the "fact" and he just observed Christians who by that time had changed Paul's story to make Jesus more than a dream.

Oh, and if the Muslims are right, you are going to hell.

elishajan said...

I put trust in myself and my fellow human beings, not a god who plays hide and seek.

And this soul that you assume we have is just another one of your religions fictitious entities. Like your god, satan, angels, jesus, virgin Mary, heaven and hell. These are all figments of your imagination.

CyberKitten said...

AE said: I wasn't saying that Darwin was the architect of the holocaust, so thanks for setting up a straw man.

I believe that you brought it up so I suggest that it's *your* straw man rather than mine....

AE said: But social darwinism theories WERE based on Darwin's theories of evolution, AND was the basis of the Nazi's "ethnic cleansing" based on "survival of the fittest" etc.

First of all Social Darwinism (SD) is one of the biggest piles of nonsense I'm aware of and has *nothing* to do with Darwinian Evolution by Natural Selection. SD is a perversion of a misunderstanding of Darwinism - which no doubt Darwin would find totally appalling. That people have used such nonsensical ideas to promote various flavours of racism & ethnic cleansing does not relate in any way to Darwin and he is not responsible for the spread of such ridiculous ideas.

As tigerboy aptly put it: let's blame the Nazis for their own actions, and not Mr. Darwin.

AE said: I suggest Reading about what I'm talking about before declaring that it can't possibly be true. When you blindly defend Darwin you're as bad as people who blindly defend their religion.

I'm sorry - but I don't think that reading a Wikipedia article will make what you said any less nonsensical. People may have abused Darwinism for their own twisted purposes but this does not reflect badly on Darwinism itself. Darwins Theory of Evolution is about as close as we can get to cold, hard fact. Throwing in the Nazi's does *nothing* to discredit his ideas.

As to 'blindly defending' Darwin - I see nothing that *needs* defending! The man was a genius who managed to sucessfully undermine thousands of years of wishful thinking by discovering the *truth* about life on Earth. What is there that possibly needs defending?

Tigerboy said...

Right. Thank you.

Rebekah said...

God has not hide himself from any of you. When did you come to God honoring him. When did you seek him?

Psalm 10:4 "The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts"

If you admit there is a God then you are ultimately responsible to Him.

You are all happy in your sins, you don't want to give up what you know to be wrong. You all have knowledge of right and wrong. You hide from God just as Adam and Eve did.

Thanks everyone for letting me join in : )

Tigerboy said...

Rebekah:

You are welcome to join in, I just wish you would answer the question:

Do you deny that had you been adopted and raised by Buddhists that you would most likely believe very different things?

Rebekah said...

Tigerboy
I understand your question. You want to prove that I am not capable of coming to any other conclusions other than how I was raised. I was raised to drink and smoke dope, lie and steal. I knew it was wrong, and my parents never said a thing. Selfish people looking out only for themselves do selfish things. They idol and worship themselves, they make room for no one else unless they get something out of it. Thats why you are all happy where you are. Your all hiding from God.

CyberKitten said...

rebekah said: Your all hiding from God.

Surely if God is omnipresent - then hiding from Him is impossible? He knows where we are & He knows if we've been bad or good.

We are not hiding from Him - He is (somewhat strangely) hiding from us - for it is somewhat less that obvious that there *is* in fact a God (of any flavour).

What is your single best piece of evidence or argument that shows beyond question that God actually does exist. Go on - give it your best shot!

Rebekah said...

God is omnipresent, hiding from him is possible. Adam and Eve hid from him. He knew you before the foundations of the world, he knows you more than you know yourselves. He knows the hairs on your very head. He has provided for you, and how to come to him? You don't appreciate nothing, because your to busy worshipping yourself and what you think. You have made yourself a god to your very own self. I can list millions and trillions of reasons that God exist, but you don't want to believe. You are afraid, just as Adam was. My best shot is you, and your fear of Him.
There is no such thing as an atheist, you all believe there is a God, just to afraid to admit it.

CyberKitten said...

rebekah I can list millions and trillions of reasons that God exist, but you don't want to believe.

OK. But just one will do....

rebekah said: My best shot is you, and your fear of Him.

Huh?

rebekah said: There is no such thing as an atheist, you all believe there is a God, just to afraid to admit it.

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

Tigerboy said...

Rebekah:

My point in asking the question has to do with the large number and variety of religions in the world. They say very conflicting things. Not all can be right.

Even within the many large organized religions, there are different sects, different philosophies. There are almost as many different ways to think about religion as there are members of the congregation.

You think God created a world in which there are all these vastly different religious ideas, but only you have got the ONE TRUE ANSWER? Isn't that hard to believe? Isn't it breathtakingly arrogant?

Don't you think a Muslim woman is just as convinced of her truth, as you are of yours?

How likely is it that God created a world where the Muslim woman is on her way to paradise, but you must burn in Hell because you were tricked into believing the wrong thing?

Flip it back around and that's basically what you are claiming for yourself. You have the ONE TRUE ANSWER, and everyone else is going to Hell because they put their faith elsewhere.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't that what you believe?

Jack said...

There is no such thing as an atheist, you all believe there is a God, just to afraid to admit it.

Talk about a weak and useless argument.

I had a crush on a girl named Kim. I finally got the courage to ask her out and she said no.

Now I know that I should have told her that she really wanted to date me, but that she was scared.

Had I done so she surely would have accepted my invitation.

elilshajan said...

Rebekah said, "There is no such thing as an atheist, you all believe there is a God, just to afraid to admit it."

If that is not a prime example of "projection", I don't know what is. Let's turn that around to reveal the more likely assumption:

**There is no such thing as a god, you know this to be true, you are just afraid to admit it.**