Friday, March 21, 2008

Israel and Iraq: Cognitive Dissonance

There was recently an astounding poll of Palestinians which showed that 84% of them support the recent terrorist attack at a yeshiva in Israel. (Previously.) (The poll also found, although right-wing sources conveniently omit this, "66 percent favoring normalized relations with Israel if it returned all land won in 1967 and a Palestinian state was established.")

I've more or less given up hope on any significant improvement in Israel in the near future. Pretty much anything Israel does just makes the situation worse, and the Palestinians certainly aren't showing any signs of working towards peace.

This sounds a bit like what's going on in Iraq, doesn't it? (I'm speaking tactically/strategically, not morally.) But for some reason, with respect to Iraq, the American hawks get all starry-eyed and think that if we just stay a few more years, the Iraqi factions will suddenly renounce their violent and hateful ways and decide to live in peace and harmony, blossoming into a democracy that will transform the entire middle east. Suggest that relative peace is possible in Israel/Palestine via tough negotiations and an eventual two-state solution, and they'll laugh bitterly. Suggest that peace is possible in Iraq even without a multiple-state solution and they'll call you a genius. Something does not compute.

5 comments:

Holy Hyrax said...

Yes, and here it mentions that three quarters favor terminating negotions.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420730237&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So it basically goes like this: 66% favor normal relations IF they get EVERYTHING they want. If not, "we support blowing the shit out of you." While the rest of the 34% don't support ANY relations.

Thats great news.

tommy said...

I favor withdrawal from every international convention that would prevent the U.S. or other western countries (including Israel) from inflicting collective punishment of hostile civilian populations who choose to ignore prevailing standards of warfare and routinely support terrorism making civilians on the other side the target. International standards should be reserved for legitimate armies and militias willing to respect such rules, which is original purpose of such conventions in the first place. If people don't want to wage war in a "civilized" fashion, they should have no expectation of reciprocation from enemies. Cut off their water, cut off their electricity, randomly shell their towns, and dynamite their mosques. Turn them into refugees in their own lands. (In fact, the Lebanese Shiites should be driven into Syria since it is that country to which they are apparently most loyal.) The Palestinians and the Shiites in southern Lebanon are begging for it. It's time to get Genghis Khan on these people.

Jewish Sceptic said...

Hmm. I never thought of it like that.

But I guess America doesn't want to lose political face by pulling out. Besides, I'd say they have a responsibility to stay in now and ensure stable government of some sort..even if temporary, making sure law and order remains after they pull out, which it clearly would not if they did that now.

As for the Palestinian-Israel case, there's so much wrong going on there it makes my head spin...

asher said...

Holy is about as right as right can be.

Israel left Gaza by moving it's own citizens out of an area they had lived in for years. The "Palestinians" then destroyed any ability for them to fend for themselves in that area by taking apart the greenhouses that the "settlers" left for them. Then they elect Hamas as their government to demonstrate to the world how much they want a peaceful negotiation.

Pre-1967 borders would include giving back Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

JA, has this land for peace idea ever panned out? I mean, I'll limit you to the 60 years of Israel's existance or the 40 years since an arab people began calling themselves "palestinians". Why not just call it appeasement? Churchill said appeasement is like feeding a crocidile and hoping he eats you last.

But, to support those folks living in Gaza I think they should advertise it as a vacation spot. After all, Israel has been doing well with tourism lately since that illegal wall and barrier has cut down suicide attacks (homocide attacks) from those moderate Arabs who would love a 2 state solution.

Also, it's amazing that no one ever thought of making Mecca into an international city. That might solve a whole host of problems.

Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

But for some reason, with respect to Iraq, the American hawks get all starry-eyed and think that if we just stay a few more years, the Iraqi factions will suddenly renounce their violent and hateful ways and decide to live in peace and harmony, blossoming into a democracy that will transform the entire middle east.

I attended a speech given by the former Iraqi Ambassador to the UN 2 years ago. Somebody asked if it were possible to repair the Shiite-Sunni divide. He said that Iraq does did not have a history of Shiite-Sunni violence going back to before the days that the British ruled the area, that all the violence very recent.