tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post114313457469841199..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Bad Religious Arguments: Pascal's WagerJewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1150223787913529792006-06-13T14:36:00.000-04:002006-06-13T14:36:00.000-04:00Mr./Miss/Mrs. Jewish Athiest, this is indeed an in...Mr./Miss/Mrs. Jewish Athiest, this is indeed an interesting blog entry. I must say however, that I feel you looked too deeply into the probability/payoff strand of your argument. Surely it is irrelevant, for what exactly qualifies as a 'religion' or 'faith'? <BR/><BR/>Tomorrow I could create my own religion, with the greatest odds and payoffs possible so that via the Pascal's Wager argument, my faith is the most logical 'choice'.<BR/><BR/>Pascal's Wager would only be close to being valid if we make the very sketchy assumption that out of the choice of religions we have, all/most (certainly Christianity and Judaism) are based on factually valid Holy credentials, and are therefore somehow different from a text I could theoretically make up tomorrow.<BR/><BR/>(apologies if a double post appears)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143830594890082812006-03-31T13:43:00.000-05:002006-03-31T13:43:00.000-05:00It's not like doing "Good Works" is going to save ...<B>It's not like doing "Good Works" is going to save your ass. Then we would be able to boast about how good you are.</B><BR/><BR/>That also happens with faith--there are Christians out there who like to boast about their faith getting them to Heaven. It's quite similar, imo.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09290280400450386402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143486934019470722006-03-27T14:15:00.000-05:002006-03-27T14:15:00.000-05:00sadie lou:There's a difference between punishing y...sadie lou:<BR/><BR/>There's a difference between punishing your child for misbehaving and torturing him forever. When I say I'm a good person, I don't mean that I'm good enough to deserve everlasting reward (a.k.a. Heaven) just that I'm good enough to NOT deserve everlasting torture. I'm a little surprised that you think it's okay for God to torture people for not believing in Him.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143244060833757972006-03-24T18:47:00.000-05:002006-03-24T18:47:00.000-05:00cy--it's cool with me.cy--<BR/>it's cool with me.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143243389310230222006-03-24T18:36:00.000-05:002006-03-24T18:36:00.000-05:00All that I can say Sadie is that we have VERY diff...All that I can say Sadie is that we have VERY different world views.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143243021459930062006-03-24T18:30:00.000-05:002006-03-24T18:30:00.000-05:00And right before he took the cyanide pill Adolph H...And right before he took the cyanide pill Adolph Hilter said he believed in Jesus, fondly recalling his years a choir boy in Austria...and Jesus forgave him?asherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09237854868544073084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143242744567083212006-03-24T18:25:00.000-05:002006-03-24T18:25:00.000-05:00Hello?YES!What kind of God would sit back and rewa...Hello?<BR/>YES!<BR/>What kind of God would sit back and reward people for shaking their fists at God their whole lives?<BR/>You keep focusing on God's LOVE, FOREGIVENESS, MERCY but you forget to mention that a Holy God demands JUSTICE as well.<BR/>Think about it like this:<BR/>What kind of parent would I be if there were no consequence for my children's actions?<BR/>"That's okay if you hit your sister. I LOVE you anyways."<BR/>"That's okay if you wrecked my car and you don't care. I FORGIVE you anyways."<BR/>What kind of spineless, weak willed push over parent would I be?<BR/>My kids would walk all over me. They wouldn't respect me.<BR/>Now amp it up a million times and relate it to a Holy, Righteous God.<BR/>What kind of respect do you show Him?<BR/>Zero.<BR/>And he's supposed to FORGIVE you anyways?<BR/>I wouldn't respect a God like that. I'd tell a God like that, he can take his laws and shove it. I would live my life however the hell I wanted to because he's going to love me and forgive me no matter what I do to him or my fellow man.<BR/>Move over and let me have a sin party!<BR/>Are you kidding me?<BR/>The God I worship disciplines me and shows me right from wrong. When I screw up, I repent on my face and ask that he forgive me--not because he'll send me to hell if I don't but because he loves me so much that he has the guts to show me the boundries and I respect that.<BR/>A god with no boundries and no consequences isn't a god at all.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143240602949964692006-03-24T17:50:00.000-05:002006-03-24T17:50:00.000-05:00sadie lou said: Cy--You think God isn't worthy; yo...sadie lou said: Cy--<BR/>You think God isn't worthy; you believe your definitions of what a loving God should be is the standard by which God should measure his worth.<BR/><BR/>So... You believe that a loving, merciful and forgiving God would torture people in Hell for all eternity for rejecting Him. It would seem that we have different definitions of those attributes.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143239147577028722006-03-24T17:25:00.000-05:002006-03-24T17:25:00.000-05:00JA and Cy--Just by reading both your answers, I ca...JA and Cy--<BR/>Just by reading both your answers, I can assume that PRIDE stands between you and God.<BR/>JA--You think you are a good person; good enough to deserve heaven.<BR/>Cy--<BR/>You think God isn't worthy; you believe your definitions of what a loving God should be is the standard by which God should measure his worth.<BR/>Both are delusions of grandeur.<BR/><BR/>JA's standard of "good" = Himself.<BR/>CY's standard of a "good" God resides in his mind.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143237934652443942006-03-24T17:05:00.000-05:002006-03-24T17:05:00.000-05:00JA said: I couldn't worship a God who would tortur...JA said: I couldn't worship a God who would torture someone for eternity just because they didn't believe in or follow Him. I'm a good person; I don't deserve eternal Hellfire.<BR/><BR/>I agree. I find it impossible to believe that a 'loving' God would do that. Why is it SO important that we believe in him? Where is it our 'free will' to do so if the consequences of not doing so are so horrible? A God that would do that is not worthy of worship just fear.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143237844628447212006-03-24T17:04:00.000-05:002006-03-24T17:04:00.000-05:00Scary psychotic god, sure, let me sign up.Scary psychotic god, sure, let me sign up.Foilwomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01439472253349139358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143237612313633732006-03-24T17:00:00.000-05:002006-03-24T17:00:00.000-05:00I couldn't worship a God who would torture someone...I couldn't worship a God who would torture someone for eternity just because they didn't believe in or follow Him. I'm a good person; I don't deserve eternal Hellfire.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143237113736941132006-03-24T16:51:00.000-05:002006-03-24T16:51:00.000-05:00I don't think you're a lost cause.I find it dishea...I don't think you're a lost cause.<BR/>I find it disheartening that you spend more time trying to disprove the gospel to yourself and others and zero time researching it's validity but I'm not going to place eternal judgment on your soul.<BR/>Unrepentant sinners are going to hell, yes, if that's you--then it's you. That's God's call--not mine.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143236269378234432006-03-24T16:37:00.000-05:002006-03-24T16:37:00.000-05:00No, I don't.Do you believe I'm going to Hell becau...No, I don't.<BR/><BR/>Do you believe I'm going to Hell because of something I (don't) believe?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143235549260693882006-03-24T16:25:00.000-05:002006-03-24T16:25:00.000-05:00Do you believe Jesus died so that you could live?Do you believe Jesus died so that you could <I>live</I>?Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143233400212224902006-03-24T15:50:00.000-05:002006-03-24T15:50:00.000-05:00Sadie Lou:So you think I'm going to Hell?Sadie Lou:<BR/><BR/>So you think I'm going to Hell?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143232713367903552006-03-24T15:38:00.000-05:002006-03-24T15:38:00.000-05:00So how exactly is God's grace achieved? I presume ...<I>So how exactly is God's grace achieved? I presume that God must have some reason to bestow His grace - even if it is a reason that we don't understand.</I><BR/><BR/>It shouldn't be viewed in terms of achievement. I do not look at others that do not have God's grace and think," I have achieved God's grace. I am more in God's favor than you."<BR/>Grace is a gift, freely given.<BR/><B>Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the <I>grace</I> of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” </B><BR/><BR/>Christ died to give us grace. That's what Christians mean when we say," I have accpted Christ."<BR/>We have accepted the gospel that Jesus died on the cross for my (your) sins.<BR/>We only experience this Grace through Faith.<BR/>The Faithless have no Grace.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143221543452029442006-03-24T12:32:00.000-05:002006-03-24T12:32:00.000-05:00Sadie lou said: I say religions that preach about ...Sadie lou said: I say religions that preach about works are dangerous because they give people a false sense of being able to achieve God's grace on their own merits.<BR/><BR/>So how exactly is God's grace achieved? I presume that God must have some reason to bestow His grace - even if it is a reason that we don't understand.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143218372178376902006-03-24T11:39:00.000-05:002006-03-24T11:39:00.000-05:00Works that please God are a byproduct not a requir...Works that please God are a byproduct not a requirement. <BR/>It's not like the second you become a Christian you start living a better life. It's a process of God growing you up in ways He desires for each individual person.<BR/>I think I've told you plenty of times that nobody is going to get to Heaven on their own "worthiness".<BR/>It's not like doing "Good Works" is going to save your ass. Then we would be able to boast about how good you are.<BR/>I say religions that preach about works are dangerous because they give people a false sense of being able to achieve God's grace on their own merits.<BR/>There is not one human being that God can look at and say, "That person is holy and blameless before me--they have earned their own way into heaven."Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143215647122896702006-03-24T10:54:00.000-05:002006-03-24T10:54:00.000-05:00sadie lou said: any religion that preaches salvati...sadie lou said: any religion that preaches salvation by works is dangerous.<BR/><BR/>'Dangerous' how exactly? If you are 'saved' only by the Grace of God - then does it really matter what you do in the meantime? Or is it your actions (Good Works) make you worthy of God's Grace? I'm presuming here that God doesn't dispense his Grace purely at random....CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143215047371708422006-03-24T10:44:00.000-05:002006-03-24T10:44:00.000-05:00*Christian*ChristianSadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143215029385635492006-03-24T10:43:00.000-05:002006-03-24T10:43:00.000-05:00Cool post."a Christion denomination that demands o...Cool post.<BR/>"a Christion denomination that demands only that you believe in Jesus--"<BR/><BR/>Salvation by Grace<BR/>Works can't Save You<BR/><BR/>Sounds right to me.<BR/>any religion that preaches salvation by works is dangerous.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143212550879011682006-03-24T10:02:00.000-05:002006-03-24T10:02:00.000-05:00asher said: Looks like most people on earth took t...asher said: Looks like most people on earth took that wager seriously...<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that's the case. Or are you saying that Christians in particular & Theists in general decide to believe in God because it is dangerous to believe otherwise? That seems (to me) to be a rather strange position to take.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143199920544750012006-03-24T06:32:00.000-05:002006-03-24T06:32:00.000-05:00Looks like most people on earth took that wager se...Looks like most people on earth took that wager seriously...very few people consider themselves atheists.asherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09237854868544073084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1143146914804379342006-03-23T15:48:00.000-05:002006-03-23T15:48:00.000-05:00Pascal's wager of course only addresses the ration...Pascal's wager of course only addresses the rational argument for belief - it has nothing to say on the subject of whether the object believed in exists or not.<BR/><BR/>That said, it looks (to this non-Catholic) as if the answer to your question is Roman Catholicism - roughly a billion adherents, and the rest seem to check too...Randomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12510273350131579837noreply@blogger.com