tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post9127283324182469179..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Eliezer Yudkowsky on Religion and Separate MagesteriaJewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-33974579331153363712018-02-17T04:22:53.335-05:002018-02-17T04:22:53.335-05:00Classic ad hominem fallacy.Classic ad hominem fallacy.jqbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07510836914645398165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-17128248442800404542007-08-13T18:08:00.000-04:002007-08-13T18:08:00.000-04:00Yudkowsky's certainly wrong on one point: there ar...Yudkowsky's certainly wrong on one point: there are, in fact, references in the O.T. to transcendent wonder -- in the Psalms. See, for example, Psalm 104:24-: "How wondrous are your works, O God,/In wisdom You have made them all..."Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714994985332145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-52593671577002628702007-08-09T18:20:00.000-04:002007-08-09T18:20:00.000-04:00One can't "absolutely" deny the existence of elves...One can't "absolutely" deny the existence of elves either. There is some evidence: some psychic healers claim they had seen them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-82314452281485408282007-08-08T14:13:00.000-04:002007-08-08T14:13:00.000-04:00One of these things is possible in a materialist u...One of these things is possible in a materialist universe. So are intelligent aliens, to take another example. And I'm not "absolutely not" regarding the possibility of a creator God. I simply don't believe in one. If evidence to the contrary arises, I will be happy to reconsider my position.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-21628503626668356232007-08-07T20:59:00.000-04:002007-08-07T20:59:00.000-04:00I'm with bedlymite, I think. I doubt it will happe...<I>I'm with bedlymite, I think. I doubt it will happen any time soon, but I don't see why it couldn't happen eventually.</I><BR/><BR/>JA, regarding the possible, yet perhaps (at least currently) far-fetched idea of the Singularity, you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt; but the possibility of a creator god, absolutely not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-52468081779205074462007-08-07T12:21:00.000-04:002007-08-07T12:21:00.000-04:00At least some scholars regard the account of Israe...<I>At least some scholars regard the account of Israel's origins as a myth intended to generate social solidarity. Imagine twelve tribes, not all descended from the same ancestor, who enter into a treaty with one another. They form a military alliance. They want to make the point, "We're all brothers now — we don't fight against each other, we fight for each other.". And so they generate a myth of common ancestry and perhaps deliverance from a common foe</I><BR/><BR/>That's pretty much what I've been assuming.<BR/><BR/><I>On the other hand, I think it is well established that Jesus was a healer / exorcist. His reputation as such is what drew crowds to him and persuaded his followers that he might be the Messiah.</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus as carnie. Interesting. ;-)<BR/><BR/><I>If you're interested, I would consider writing a guest post in the next couple of weeks expanding on my earlier comment about myth as a literary genre.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-39567504500460367362007-08-07T12:06:00.000-04:002007-08-07T12:06:00.000-04:00I have no problem believing that the plagues were ...<EM>I have no problem believing that the plagues were recognized as metaphorical, but the entire Exodus</EM>?<BR/><BR/>That's a reasonable question, and I don't have anything like a definitive answer.<BR/><BR/>At least some scholars regard the account of Israel's origins as a myth intended to generate social solidarity. Imagine twelve tribes, not all descended from the same ancestor, who enter into a treaty with one another. They form a military alliance. They want to make the point, "We're all brothers now — we don't fight against each other, we fight for each other.". And so they generate a myth of common ancestry and perhaps deliverance from a common foe.<BR/><BR/>Or perhaps there was a miraculous deliverance which the twelve tribes ascribed to the intervention of a specific deity, YHWH, who then delivered Canaan into their hands as well. YHWH is fundamentally warlike in the Penteteuch.<BR/><BR/>I'm not convinced we're in a completely non-historical realm in those books. I think there were core stories that were polished as they were handed down over many generations. At most, we have a very idealized account of history.<BR/><BR/>My own position is pretty much agnosticism: we can't know whether the events are historical or not; we don't have enough data. It isn't until much later, in the time of the divided kingdom, that we have extra-biblical accounts that corroborate certain details of the biblical account.<BR/><BR/>I think some of the New Testament narratives are the same sort of thing. The story of Jesus' virgin birth is actually peripheral to the New Testament (though central to orthodox Christian theology), and I regard it as a myth of purely theological import.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I think it is well established that Jesus was a healer / exorcist. His reputation as such is what drew crowds to him and persuaded his followers that he might be the Messiah.<BR/><BR/>But in the end, we're left with uncorroborated narratives that present a particular view of the cosmos and of human society. We can accept the worldview or reject it, making a decision for or against faith.<BR/><BR/>Other sorts of evidence are relevant considerations, of course. I don't mean to imply that there are no reasonable grounds on which one might make a decision.<BR/><BR/>If you're interested, I would consider writing a guest post in the next couple of weeks expanding on my earlier comment about myth as a literary genre.stchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018824090441668781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-82640321195400003502007-08-07T10:50:00.000-04:002007-08-07T10:50:00.000-04:00Everyone (well, not everyone — popular religion al...<I>Everyone (well, not everyone — popular religion always tends to be gullible) understood that the stories were intended to convey a worldview.</I><BR/><BR/>Does that apply to a question as basic as whether the Exodus even happened, though? I have no problem believing that the plagues were recognized as metaphorical, but the entire Exodus?<BR/><BR/><I>As for errors like the number of legs of a grasshopper — that should only trouble a fundamentalist, whose faith depends on an inerrant text.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm usually thinking of and at least in part addressing my Orthodox Jewish readers, since that's where I come from. Orthodox Jews believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses word for word (possibly without the last 8 verses after Moses's death, etc.) To Orthodox Judaism, errors like the number of legs on a grasshopper should therefore be a very big deal.<BR/><BR/>I find your brand of non-fundamentalist religion very interesting, but I'm not exactly fluent in it as I am with Orthodox Judaism. :-)Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-34094206925302977082007-08-07T08:47:00.000-04:002007-08-07T08:47:00.000-04:00• Mark:I'm not certain, but I think the autho...• Mark:<BR/>I'm not certain, but I think the author may be referring to the original dating of the Exodus in the fifteenth century BCE. My evangelical profs still defended that date not very long ago, but scholars date the arrival of Hebrews in Canaan a full two centuries later. I don't know this, but I'm supposing that Egypt might have ruled Canaan in the fifteenth century, constituting a conflict with the traditional date.<BR/><BR/>• JA:<BR/>As often, a very interesting post. Your blog is a kind of clearing house for these provocative assertions.<BR/><BR/>But I disagree with the author's premise. I am of the opinion that ancient readers were more sophisticated than we give them credit for. Modernists (us) have serious difficulty wrapping our heads around the whole category, <EM>myth</EM> as a literary genre. We try to read the first eleven chapters of Genesis like a modern scientific or historical text, when it was never intended as such.<BR/><BR/>Part of the evidence for this is that ancient cultures ("primitive" societies)often told stories where one narrative was inconsistent with another. I don't think the people were stupid; they were vaguely aware of the inconsistencies. But they didn't sweat them, because they didn't take the texts literally. Everyone (well, not everyone — popular religion always tends to be gullible) understood that <STRONG>the stories were intended to convey a worldview</STRONG>. They depict certain core beliefs about the cosmic order; but the details are more like metaphor — illistrative material — not cold hard scientific fact.<BR/><BR/>As for errors like the number of legs of a grasshopper — that should only trouble a fundamentalist, whose faith depends on an inerrant text. And this is the great irony: fundamentalists (like atheists) are thoroughly modernist in their mindset. They don't "get" myth as a genre, either.stchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018824090441668781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-74149996152947544172007-08-07T03:24:00.000-04:002007-08-07T03:24:00.000-04:00Anonymous:I find it really hard to take Yudkowsky'...Anonymous:<BR/><BR/><I>I find it really hard to take Yudkowsky's rants regarding belief seriously when he himself believes in the Singularity.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm with bedlymite, I think. I doubt it will happen any time soon, but I don't see why it couldn't happen eventually.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Mark:<BR/><BR/>The Egypt ruling Canaan part was new to me (and I am of course skeptical of it until I get corroborating info) but I don't know anything about that era. I'd be interested to find out the truth.<BR/><BR/><BR/>(Different?) Anon:<BR/><BR/><I>JA, are you a regular Overcoming Bias reader?</I><BR/><BR/>Lately I am.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-51811940726597813182007-08-07T02:33:00.000-04:002007-08-07T02:33:00.000-04:00JA, are you a regular Overcoming Bias reader?JA, are you a regular Overcoming Bias reader?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-56238829613229443672007-08-06T22:40:00.000-04:002007-08-06T22:40:00.000-04:00to anonymous (:I agree with yudkowsky except for t...to anonymous (:<BR/><BR/>I agree with yudkowsky except for the timescale. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime - same thing for advanced nano and sens too. Eventually? Maybe.<BR/><BR/>The difference between 50 yrs and 100 years is insignificant in my opinion. Human timescales are irrelevant to the matter. Can it happen or not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-53230641464760025522007-08-06T20:18:00.000-04:002007-08-06T20:18:00.000-04:00JA,Do you have corroboration on the historical cla...JA,<BR/><BR/>Do you have corroboration on the historical claims:<BR/><BR/><EM>In contrast, the people who invented the Old Testament stories could make up pretty much anything they liked. Early Egyptologists were genuinely shocked to find no trace whatsoever of Jewish tribes having ever been in Egypt - they weren't expecting to find a record of the Ten Plagues, but they expected to find something. As it turned out, they did find something. They found out that, during the supposed time of the Exodus from Egypt, Egypt ruled Canaan. The tribes would have fled to find Pharaoh's armies already at the destination. That's one huge historical error, but if there are no libraries, nobody can call you on it.</EM><BR/><BR/>I'm going to ask about that claim.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10837999838469082203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-86497096123607116452007-08-06T17:46:00.000-04:002007-08-06T17:46:00.000-04:00I find it really hard to take Yudkowsky's rants re...I find it really hard to take Yudkowsky's rants regarding belief seriously when he himself believes in the Singularity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com