tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post6786574938469229689..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Is Morality Selfishness by Another Name?Jewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-61053268360152945242009-07-13T18:24:50.134-04:002009-07-13T18:24:50.134-04:00Yes, there is an atheistic morality
based on selfi...Yes, there is an atheistic morality<br />based on selfishness. It's Ayn Rand's Objectivism. Ayn Rand has a<br />very complete answers to many of your questions concerning morality.Egoist Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13590549942129475745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-29105625021729610302007-04-14T22:54:00.000-04:002007-04-14T22:54:00.000-04:00David, when you peel away all the layers you're le...David, when you peel away all the layers you're left with a joke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-40180065766167063302007-04-14T07:49:00.000-04:002007-04-14T07:49:00.000-04:00"Elimination of the weak and defective, the first ..."Elimination of the weak and defective, the first principle of our philosophy! And we should help them to do it!"<BR/><BR/>(Nietzsche, the Syphillitic...in The AntiChrist, sec. 2)<BR/><BR/>Theres atheist "morality" for you.<BR/><BR/>And we see it being worked out in our own society...over a third of all pregnancies aborted, the majority of those minorities (David Duke thinks abortion is great for minorites) and letting the "defective" babies die.<BR/><BR/>Or, better yet, killing...uh, aborting them...before they are even born.<BR/><BR/>No perversion is inconsistent with atheism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-44023771473859309532007-04-12T23:19:00.000-04:002007-04-12T23:19:00.000-04:00David, you are talking of objective morality, I kn...David, you are talking of objective morality, I know. The fabric of universe is little more than ones own subjectivity. To quote William James, "where on this moon-lit earth have you seen facts?" I don't subscribe to such an extreme version of relativism or subjectivity. But you have to agree that discovering something in the fabric of universe is a veiled euphemism for raking among several culture based concepts that are inextricably mixed with the universe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-36472063139942360522007-04-12T18:01:00.000-04:002007-04-12T18:01:00.000-04:00David, I didn't give my argument yet because we we...David, I didn't give my argument yet because we weren't arguing about who made morality. If morality is not man made how come different cultures and epochs have different definitions of what is moral? Morality and man are highly correlated. But there is a relationship of causality too. Man cause morality. You can make an experiment: take a new-born Jew and raise him as a muslim palestinian. What kind of morality do you get? Not modern orthodox for sure.<BR/>Now the second point. Invention doesn't assume the qualities of it's inventor. But there are some laws of cause and effect. A finite pencil can't draw infinite circles. A realtively moral man knows experiences only relative morality, has no concept of absolute morality. How can he invent absolute morality when he can't concieve of it? Can you prove that man ever experienced absolute morality?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-87126038906901437362007-04-12T09:53:00.000-04:002007-04-12T09:53:00.000-04:00I'm not sure if all morals are self serving, but t...I'm not sure if all morals are self serving, but they are definitely relative. after all, cannibals find nothing wrong with murder.<BR/><BR/>There was an interesting book by Tammy Bruce called The Death of Right and Wrong. She basically argues that we have become so PC and accepting of anything that there is no right and wrong any more. Sure, she has a fairly conservative view overall, but I think she has a very good point. <BR/><BR/>Just take teen pregnancy as an example. It used to be looked down upon and you were ostracized if you had at baby at 15. Now we are not allowed to say there is anything wrong with that and teen pregnancy has been rising once again. Surely, this is not a good thing for society as a whole.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12909933722622649565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-21623585219693748322007-04-11T23:06:00.000-04:002007-04-11T23:06:00.000-04:00David, I mean that our screwed up selfish morality...David, I mean that our screwed up selfish morality is just another example of the fact that man is not absolute anything (specifically moral). So man is not in the position to posit absolutes: knowledge, morality, religion... anything really. Morality is a man made concept. It can not be more absolute than the men who invented it. Morality is used politically as a stick: you're not like us, you're not moral - bam bam bam. That's all there is to it. (I am a minimalist though.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-9723690671431084582007-04-11T15:39:00.000-04:002007-04-11T15:39:00.000-04:00David, actually your conclusion in your first post...David, actually your conclusion in your first post doesn't follow. If people's motives are primarily selfish then their morality is imperfect. <BR/>Therefore there is no objective morality because it's an idea thought up by morally imperfect human beings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-70714099427211498922007-04-11T15:31:00.000-04:002007-04-11T15:31:00.000-04:00>>While what you say is strictly true, we usually ...>><I>While what you say is strictly true, we usually think of morality as something you do even if it goes against your self-interest.</I><BR/><BR/>The distinction is more important that you're giving credit for. One may argue, for example, that one <I>should</I> be moral even if it goes against one's self interest but most people <I>in fact</I> only behave morally for ulterior motives. The first part is a statement about human nature. The second part, a statement about morality itself.<BR/><BR/>>><I>[T]here's no doubt that people who are very attractive (in the broad sense of the word) are free to be cads and often are.</I><BR/><BR/>Your phrase "in the broad sense of the word" is key. The problem is when you actually try to define "attractive", it becomes clear that's it's not an objective characterization.David Frymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02715435893541813786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-41689392997608952262007-04-11T15:07:00.000-04:002007-04-11T15:07:00.000-04:00I think people have values and moral standards reg...I think people have values and moral standards regardless of religion because some things they were brought up to do and their society upholds as values, which is true of the Chinese, who historically were atheists and yet had a very developed system of morals and values and "niceness" based on confucianism, but who believed in no God!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-21700053364921894422007-04-11T13:12:00.000-04:002007-04-11T13:12:00.000-04:00I think almost invariably people are nice to other...I think almost invariably people are nice to other people either because:<BR/><BR/>- it feels good<BR/><BR/>- they expect to get something out of it in the long run<BR/><BR/>I think the second option is obviously less likely for atheists than for Orthodox Jews.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-7950274935705939312007-04-11T13:10:00.000-04:002007-04-11T13:10:00.000-04:00Morality may still be fully objective and intrinsi...<I>Morality may still be fully objective and intrinsically praiseworthy even if people's motivation for behaving morality is mostly selfish.</I><BR/><BR/>While what you say is strictly true, we usually think of morality as something you do even if it goes against your self-interest.<BR/><BR/><I>By the way, the Cad vs. Dad hypothesis is a load of crap, as I'm pretty sure you realize.</I><BR/><BR/>It's obviously an oversimplification, but there's no doubt that people who are very attractive (in the broad sense of the word) are free to be cads and often are. See professional athletes, for example.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-38580510275246373602007-04-11T11:11:00.000-04:002007-04-11T11:11:00.000-04:00Over at Ambivablog there's some interesting stuff ...Over at Ambivablog there's some interesting stuff about the altruism of sperm, and the like. Seems even they will work for the greater good at times.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714994985332145353noreply@blogger.com