tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post5137381657317209377..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: The Bind of Orthodoxy: Tolerance and Toevah*Jewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-83541759715963591782010-03-11T02:40:46.982-05:002010-03-11T02:40:46.982-05:00in the 1200s bce, there was a stele(the merneptah ...in the 1200s bce, there was a stele(the merneptah stele) discovered with an inscription, the first ever to have the name Isarel, and it says Israel is destroyed. 3200years ago<br /><br />another was found, the mesha stele was found, its moabite, and the next mention of israel we have found is on this stele. Again, it says, Israel is detroyed, I beleive this was from the 9th century bce. 2800 years ago. we were wiped out from Israe about 2000 years ago. a crapload of a longtime. But were back again. its a coincidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-39313860669895945952010-02-07T00:40:30.047-05:002010-02-07T00:40:30.047-05:00I add a whole other aspect to this discussion. Th...I add a whole other aspect to this discussion. The conflict between the orthodox argument and the experience of the homosexual jew is simply beyond explanation. People either revert to denial, to rationalization, to atheism or whatever. I don't have an answer. What I do know is that since I became observant, I have been guided by Hashem not to act on inclinations. The guiding is very personal, but is not a pie in the sky "feeling". I cannot go into the details here, but there have been many remarkable and remarkably timed occurrences that were clear signs not to act in the direction I was leaning. This is not to say I have made peace with it. It is a constant and painful struggle which I really do not understand. But I also know deep in my heart that this is what Hashem wants from me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-52530921912995936702010-01-09T13:11:41.419-05:002010-01-09T13:11:41.419-05:00It's very easy to say that God forbids homosex...It's very easy to say that God forbids homosexuality for reasons that are not readily apparent but are valid nevertheless, if you're not a homosexual. If you are gay, however, and your life is being made miserable by prohibitions against homosexuality, well, it's pretty difficult to rationalize that misery through an appeal to faith.<br /><br />My question to all the Orthodox Jews out there is: what if you're wrong? What if God doesn't think that homosexuality is immoral, and your promotion of the belief that he does is causing people to suffer? Do you ever consider this possibility?Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07327785256936928799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-46499213596819992402010-01-06T20:27:13.773-05:002010-01-06T20:27:13.773-05:00JA,
"That's a little disingenuous, isn&#...JA,<br /><br />"That's a little disingenuous, isn't it? I think we all understand OJ thought to some extent. You appear to be *defending* it or rationalizing it."<br /><br />Heh, and on other forums I "defend" the atheist's perspective on things. Just because I don't share an opinion doesn't mean I can't recognize poor arguments against it.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-88524445314817552152010-01-06T15:12:13.323-05:002010-01-06T15:12:13.323-05:00"That's a little disingenuous, isn't ..."That's a little disingenuous, isn't it? I think we all understand OJ thought to some extent. "<br /><br />I have never seen you write anything that would suggest you actually understand OJ thought at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-83286784636941248862010-01-06T13:19:46.727-05:002010-01-06T13:19:46.727-05:00Ortho:
I was only sharing some insight into OJ th...Ortho:<br /><br /><i>I was only sharing some insight into OJ thought. I didn't say I shared that thought.</i><br /><br />That's a little disingenuous, isn't it? I think we all understand OJ thought to some extent. You appear to be *defending* it or rationalizing it.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-23420871060453520572010-01-05T18:55:10.961-05:002010-01-05T18:55:10.961-05:00The raging hormones of the internet does not allow...The raging hormones of the internet does not allow for a truthfull discussion.<br /><br />But let's be honest here. Gay relationships are not allowed because it does not create a relationship where two people join in a symbolic act of recreating the world.<br /><br />And although the western world could care less about creating families or the raising of a soul similar to your own as the main purpose for a human's life, Judaism and most of it's adherents still feel that way.<br /><br />In Judaism, if you can't have children you are meant to get a divorce. If you don't want children, you shouldn't get married.<br /><br />Gay activism is just a reminder of how much we have lost regarding this issue since the 1960s, and it's the last straw in how we allow our society to be defined. Selfish individualism is hard force to fight against, but Jews have been fighting against it since Abraham. We were only lucky that for 2,000 years the rest of the world agreed with us on that point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-20430315409253579152010-01-05T13:21:24.996-05:002010-01-05T13:21:24.996-05:00i dont mean to be rude or try to convince you... b...i dont mean to be rude or try to convince you... but did you read Torah? its very brave to call this perfect example of literature (belive me its language, its passages-its very high level of literature) story for childeren is kinds unjusty. even if you dont belive in G-d and its your right, as least respect this as statment of culture...ilona@israelhttp://samsonblinded.org/news/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-28928648898782316982010-01-05T01:25:34.385-05:002010-01-05T01:25:34.385-05:00Perhaps what orthoprax is implying is that loyal o...Perhaps what orthoprax is implying is that loyal orthodox Jews sweep such questions under the carpet. Jews could avoid these questions in the past because we were a relatively powerless and small minority and had to submit to laws and sovereignty of our host countries. We could say, "well, the goyim make us do this, we have no choice, etc" <br /><br />When a modern Jewish State was created, many of these moral dilemmas could no longer be swept under the carpet. How do Jews relate to non-Jews? Do we violate Shabbat to save their lives? Do we sacrifice lives for land? What about banks lending money with interest? Do we actually allow entire farms to sit fallow every 7 years? Do we prevent bastard children from ever marrying other Jews?<br /><br />I think that this is one of the reasons so many heredim at the time opposed Zionism, among other reasons. <br /><br />Orthoprax, as you have noted there are so many areas of moral conflict between modern western thought and "true" Torah Judaism, change is inevitable. Modern orthodoxy, as well as the non-orthodox movements, have attempted to bridge this gulf. Of course there will always be a small hard core group of faithful like Neturei Karta and the likes of JP that won't bend, and who will remain a small and irrelevant group in the scheme of things.DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-40425727391256744562010-01-04T23:05:57.810-05:002010-01-04T23:05:57.810-05:00JA,
"You didn't answer the question.&quo...JA,<br /><br />"You didn't answer the question."<br /><br />Was the question directed towards me? I was only sharing some insight into OJ thought. I didn't say I shared that thought.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-37606568578951078662010-01-04T17:47:39.164-05:002010-01-04T17:47:39.164-05:00You didn't answer the question. Obviously it&...You didn't answer the question. Obviously it's not the only issue that the question applies to.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-82780376204423557912010-01-04T17:33:50.493-05:002010-01-04T17:33:50.493-05:00JA,
"It's a simple thing to say, but doe...JA,<br /><br />"It's a simple thing to say, but does it convince you? Really? Deep down?"<br /><br />If I believed the OJ assumptions already stated then this application would not be unconvincing. There are many instances in Halacha that act or are based on principles contrary to modern, western morality. The rule against sodomy is not unique.<br /><br /><br />Does it not seem cruel to force a kohen to not be able to stand by his wife if she was raped, but to divorce her? Doesn't Halacha "stand in the way of love" between others, like an infertile couple after 10 years, Jews and non-Jews, kohanim and divorcees or converts, mamzerim, etc etc?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-18254489492550285352010-01-04T16:25:10.503-05:002010-01-04T16:25:10.503-05:00DrJ:
I'm not arguing with your point that Wes...DrJ:<br /><br />I'm not arguing with your point that Western culture's approval of homosexuality clashes with Judaism's disapproval (of the act itself). My point is merely that - taking as your starting point that you believe in G-d - it is not illogical to think that G-d made someone's inclination's unactable. I was responding to your line<br /><br /><i>For if homosexuality is actually found to be natural, involuntary and not harmful (and common), how could a divine being prohibit it? It would be like God saying that blue eyes are an abomination. It is a classic case of cognitive dissonance. When confronted by a large body of knowledge that contradicts the Torah, the believer denies, rationalizes or becomes aggressive.</i><br /><br />from above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-38636288350533402482010-01-04T15:54:06.096-05:002010-01-04T15:54:06.096-05:00"Even if something isn't harmful to other..."Even if something isn't harmful to others, the logic itself of "it's a normal desire but it is still prohibited to act on that desire" does not suffer."<br /><br />Its not just a question of self-restraint. Most enlightened western people believe that taboos on homosexuality stem from misconceptions, homophobia, and other historic reasons (in the case of the torah homosexuality was probably associated with idol worship rites). We therefore believe that it is WRONG and IMMORAL to prevent homosexual people from living happy and fulfulling lives because of ancient taboos, if nobody is being harmed. Since western morality is based solely on HUMAN considerations, there is no room for causing profound human suffering in the name of God. This would be immoral. <br /><br />Most Jews, like other westerners, have adopted this attitude. This is the earthquake I refer to. It is an utter rejection of Torah morality. <br /><br />It is similar to the revolution that has occured regarding women's rights.DrJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07330156581796629945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-55103930787802203982010-01-04T15:52:10.630-05:002010-01-04T15:52:10.630-05:00Anon:
Hate to break it to you, but MO Jews (like ...Anon:<br /><br /><i>Hate to break it to you, but MO Jews (like myself) don't believe that homosexuality (meaning, the ACT of homosexuality) is not immoral and that the Torah is also moral. Because of the Torah, we understand that the homosexual act is immoral.</i><br /><br />I'm sure some of you feel that way. For you, there is no cognitive dissonance in that area. But I believe a lot of Modern Orthodox Jews think that homosexual sex is NOT immmoral.<br /><br /><br />Ortho:<br /><br /><i>Similarly, it's a simple thing to say that while homosexuality doesn't seem wrong, there must be a problem with it otherwise God wouldn't have forbidden it.</i><br /><br />It's a simple thing to say, but does it convince you? Really? Deep down?<br /><br /><i>I don't see how. Is modern society's tolerance for premarital sex and adultery also an earthquake?</i><br /><br />I don't think modern society has a tolerance for adultery. I think modern society's tolerance for premarital sex is something of an earthquake, albeit a smaller one. Again, it's more in the making-Orthodoxy-look-dated category than in the making-Orthodoxy-look-evil category.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-80946866858547834352010-01-04T15:39:49.599-05:002010-01-04T15:39:49.599-05:00JA,
"This is disingenuous. OJs follow halach...JA,<br /><br />"This is disingenuous. OJs follow halacha because they believe God told 'em too, BUT THEY ALSO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS MORAL."<br /><br />Of course, but not necessarily from a humanist's standpoint.<br /><br />"It's EXACTLY cognitive dissonance, because at the same time, modern Orthodox Jews believe that homosexuality is not immoral AND that the Torah (or God-who-wrote-the-Torah) is moral. These are two contradictory beliefs that the believer must find a way to reconcile -- i.e. to RATIONALIZE."<br /><br />Perhaps, but OJs also believe that God is purposeful while simultaneously acknowledging commandments without any apparent rational purpose. So OJs say, there doesn't seem to be a purpose but there must be otherwise God wouldn't have commanded it.<br /><br />Similarly, it's a simple thing to say that while homosexuality doesn't seem wrong, there must be a problem with it otherwise God wouldn't have forbidden it.<br /><br />"DrJ is right that the modern acceptance of homosexuality is an "earthquake" to Orthodox Judaism in a way that few other issues are."<br /><br />I don't see how. Is modern society's tolerance for premarital sex and adultery also an earthquake?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-8063568159778888862010-01-04T15:34:54.291-05:002010-01-04T15:34:54.291-05:00DrJ:
You're right; I chose a bad example when...DrJ:<br /><br />You're right; I chose a bad example when I took the serial-killer route. But you responded to my example without addressing the main argument - namely, that there is no contradiction between "it's a natural, involuntary, seemingly-unharmful-to-others <i>desire</i>" and "it is prohibited to act on that desire."<br /><br />I never said anything about an illness, or a cure, or anything like that. I'm not sure why you even went off on the tangent. <br />Even if something isn't harmful to others, the logic itself of "it's a normal <i>desire</i> but it is still prohibited to act on that desire" does not suffer.<br /><br />JA:<br /><br />Hate to break it to you, but MO Jews (like myself) don't believe that homosexuality (meaning, the ACT of homosexuality) is not immoral and that the Torah is also moral. <i>Because</i> of the Torah, we understand that the homosexual act <i>is</i> immoral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-57104226031674576482010-01-04T15:18:18.506-05:002010-01-04T15:18:18.506-05:00Exactly. Do you think an orthodox person could pra...Exactly. Do you think an orthodox person could practice his religion if he believed it to be immoral???DrJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07330156581796629945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-70260520927680623502010-01-04T14:58:28.696-05:002010-01-04T14:58:28.696-05:00Ortho:
I don't want to gang up on you, but I ...Ortho:<br /><br />I don't want to gang up on you, but I think this is important.<br /><br /><i>It's not a rationalization. Orthodox Jews do not follow Halacha because they believe it the most moral from a humanistic standpoint.</i><br /><br />This is disingenuous. OJs follow halacha because they believe God told 'em too, BUT THEY ALSO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS MORAL.<br /><br />It's EXACTLY cognitive dissonance, because at the same time, modern Orthodox Jews believe that homosexuality is not immoral AND that the Torah (or God-who-wrote-the-Torah) is moral. These are two contradictory beliefs that the believer must find a way to reconcile -- i.e. to RATIONALIZE.<br /><br />DrJ is right that the modern acceptance of homosexuality is an "earthquake" to Orthodox Judaism in a way that few other issues are. Something has to give. It's not an issue where the Torah looks merely somewhat dated or obscure (like shatnez or not eating shellfish.) This is an issue completely at odds with the modern world.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-27430633962251392692010-01-04T14:49:56.416-05:002010-01-04T14:49:56.416-05:00"DrJ, the acceptance of homosexuality isn'..."DrJ, the acceptance of homosexuality isn't an "earthquake" to Judaism because real Judaism couldn't care less about what Western culture accepts."<br /><br />Wrong. Monogomy, abolition of slavery and marriage of minors, equality of women--have made a big impact on Judaism- positive in that it internalized some values, and negative in that it caused mass exodus from the religion-- a massive failure from its inability to sustain its old values in the face of modern pressures. Many "traditional" values simply became irrelevant to a majority of Jews. <br /><br />"Premarital sex, eating pork, and masturbation is also largely accepted - so what?" <br /><br />The prohibition of these things does not CONTRADICT and OFFEND modern civilization, as opposed to deligitimizing homosexuals. By looking down on premarital sex I am not causing offense to modern sensitivities, as opposed to discriminating against women or gays.<br /><br />"And your logic of "if it's natural, it must be that G-d doesn't expect you to fight it" is flawed; just because something is there by nature doesn't mean that it's not still a nisayon. "<br /><br />You're quoting me out of context by not quoting the whole sentence. I said, "natural, involuntary and not harmful (and common)". And this is the case. Contrary to what fundamentalists think, homosexuality is not an illness, is not voluntary or "curable", and constitutes around 5% of males. <br /><br />"What about a serial-killer sociopath? His natural inclination is to be a sociopathic serial killer."<br /><br />You don't need a revealed God to tell you the answer, and I am surprised that as a religious Talmud studying Jew you could not make such a distinction, between things which do harm another human being and things that don't. Western humanistic tradition for the past several hundred years, using human reason, have placed more emphasis on equality, fairness, and avoidance of harm to people, rather than offending a god, real or imagined. <br /><br />And just as Judaism has incorporated, however hesitantly, these values of equality, regarding women's rights, economic issues (such as interest on money or yovel)necessitated by a modern world, so it will take on homosexuality as well (eventually but not maybe in my lifetime). And BTW I am not gay, I'm happily married with 4 childrenDrJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07330156581796629945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-3259299096436698892010-01-04T14:39:26.767-05:002010-01-04T14:39:26.767-05:00DrJ,
"That is exactly cognitive dissonance--...DrJ,<br /><br />"That is exactly cognitive dissonance-- rationalization."<br /><br />It's not a rationalization. Orthodox Jews do not follow Halacha because they believe it the most moral from a humanistic standpoint. They follow it because they believe God told 'em to and that's not challenged by the difficulties that homosexuals undergo.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-89001751970247463172010-01-04T11:39:07.803-05:002010-01-04T11:39:07.803-05:00DrJ, the acceptance of homosexuality isn't an ...DrJ, the acceptance of homosexuality isn't an "earthquake" to Judaism because real Judaism couldn't care less about what Western culture accepts. Premarital sex, eating pork, and masturbation is also largely accepted - so what?<br /><br />And your logic of "if it's natural, it must be that G-d doesn't expect you to fight it" is flawed; just because something is there by nature doesn't mean that it's not still a nisayon. Yes, I know nobody will agree with me, and you'll probably resort to screaming "cognitive dissonance," which seems to be your rallying cry. But logically, if there <i>is</i> is G-d, the presence of a natural inclination does not contradict the prohibition to act on it. What about a serial-killer sociopath? His <i>natural</i> inclination is to be a sociopathic serial killer. Does that mean that, if there <i>is</i> a G-d, that G-d would be OK with him killing people?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-30696078358429962422010-01-04T02:57:23.417-05:002010-01-04T02:57:23.417-05:00The orthodox like to brag about their moral and we...The orthodox like to brag about their moral and well organized communities. But imagine for a moment that we implemented Torah law regarding adultery, homosexuality, slavery, and collecting wood on the Sabbath.<br /><br />We would make the Taliban look like enlightened liberal humanists.<br /><br /> Yet we know that Halacha developed as a mechanism to adapt-- discarding or disregarding Torah laws as required. This is what must be done with the prohibition of homosexuality. Perhaps we can come up with a loophole like selling chometz or pruzbool. The homosexual can sell his genitals to a gentile or something like that :)DrJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-63330825391628443202010-01-04T01:32:06.252-05:002010-01-04T01:32:06.252-05:00"The Torah doesn't give a reason for the ..."The Torah doesn't give a reason for the prohibition and the most simple approach for any Orthodox Jew is not to reject the new data, but to acknowledge that God must have good reasons for the rule even if they aren't clear to us."<br /><br />That is exactly cognitive dissonance-- rationalization. Because the data is contradictory. You have a law that appears to be immoral and yet you claim that God and the Torah are the most moral of systems (while only touting the most obviously moral ones from a humanistic point of view, like tzedaka)DrJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07330156581796629945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-18499620441881388792010-01-03T20:50:06.902-05:002010-01-03T20:50:06.902-05:00Drj,
"For if homosexuality is actually found...Drj,<br /><br />"For if homosexuality is actually found to be natural, involuntary and not harmful (and common), how could a divine being prohibit it? It would be like God saying that blue eyes are an abomination."<br /><br />It actually has little to do with that. The Torah is full of chukim that have no apparent rational purpose (eating shellfish is also an abomination) as well as rules that seem unfair - like how if a kohen's wife is raped he must divorce her.<br /><br />The Torah doesn't give a reason for the prohibition and the most simple approach for any Orthodox Jew is not to reject the new data, but to acknowledge that God must have good reasons for the rule even if they aren't clear to us.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.com