tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post3028845532511995667..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Premarital Sex: Risk vs. RewardJewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-75995277446669178072009-05-18T01:03:00.000-04:002009-05-18T01:03:00.000-04:00when talking about teen sex and suicide...
CORREL...when talking about teen sex and suicide...<br /><br />CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION<br /><br />Just because two things go up with one another doesn't mean they cause one another. There could be a completely different outside cause, and to say otherwise is statistically irresponsible. That statistic isn't a valid argument for either side.<br /><br />Sorry, I know this is a nit-picky point but it bothers me that this kind of logic is seen as valid.<br /><br />Carry on...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-24666680685719514892009-04-09T19:08:00.000-04:002009-04-09T19:08:00.000-04:00tp7 - but you're just a kidtp7 - but you're just a kidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-13957271248890133822009-03-02T12:37:00.000-05:002009-03-02T12:37:00.000-05:00Drugs are very dangerous especially to teens becau...Drugs are very dangerous especially to teens because they don't know yet the complications, that may arise in the long run. They could be dependent on the drugs to give them pleasure as well as a temporary way to forget their problems. It is best to give them advices about the risks involve in drugs and pre-marital sex, while they are still young.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-32566516365587681292009-01-20T20:23:00.000-05:002009-01-20T20:23:00.000-05:00I may have been a little extreme towards the oppos...I may have been a little extreme towards the opposition but my prospective still remains the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-87245449679346990412009-01-20T20:19:00.000-05:002009-01-20T20:19:00.000-05:00in response to "anonymous"No-one except G-d, can f...in response to "anonymous"<BR/><BR/>No-one except G-d, can forbid one from being sexually active. Can your parents tell you eating drinking and sleeping is forbidden as well? If you become open minded, you'll feel much differently..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-78804590706609193622009-01-17T21:33:00.000-05:002009-01-17T21:33:00.000-05:00Also, if you're a teenager, or live under your par...Also, if you're a teenager, or live under your parents roof, they DO have the right to tell you you cant be sexually activeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-37235362943860074092009-01-17T21:32:00.000-05:002009-01-17T21:32:00.000-05:00When you have children, you'll feel much different...When you have children, you'll feel much differentlyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-2236323332518854372008-12-27T13:44:00.000-05:002008-12-27T13:44:00.000-05:00tp7,Great comment, nice to hear your perspective. ...tp7,<BR/><BR/>Great comment, nice to hear your perspective. Thanks!Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-43163973378495984482008-12-25T23:23:00.000-05:002008-12-25T23:23:00.000-05:00Dear JA I am a 16 year old jewish kid living a you...Dear JA I am a 16 year old jewish kid living a your average "protected" jewish life. ALTHOUGH THIS IS LONG, PLEASE PLEASE READ ON ITS WOTH IT!! The average reader of your blogs are probabaly religious parents and non-religious ones as well. The difference with me IS THAT IM IN THE FRONTLINE OF THIS BATTLE, EVERY WEEK, EVERY DAY. You have no idea just how well you portrayed this aspect from both sides of the tale. Personally I do not consider myself a shy kid in the slightest sense, I have a lot of trouble understanding the conservative view on this matter. As an orthodox parent you see your desire of the perfect child gowing to “yeshiva” and then eventually Mesivta (High school for orthodox jewish boys) and of couse marrying the perfect bais yaakov girl and having the perfect jewish kids and , well, obviously becoming a doctor lawyer or rabbi. Let me say flat out this view sucks. We are in the year 2009 (almost). It is so sickening to me that when I go to school everyday I have to put up with 12th graders whom, at times, make you think they don’t know what a female is, let alone a relationship. Having a relationship with a girl your age is an extremely vital part of adolecent maturity. Honestly if youd hang out for the first 20 years of your life with boys only, how the f*ck do you expect these kids to know how to treat a girl when the time comes, let alone the worry of not becoming homosexual?? (this is not meant to offend homosexuals in any way)?? Now I’m not going to tell you whether or not I am still a virgin myself but I will tell you I am in a secretive relationship with a girl whom I really feel close to. We have very simmilar lifestyles and respect one another greatly. Its like when Im around her nothing else matters. I feel sad and upset at times knowing that some kids will never experience this sort of relationships simply because they were guarded from it or simply dissallowed from a relationship their entire teenage lives. If my parents found out about my girlfriend, they would probably flip out. This is one of the few, that’s right, few, things that really turn me off from Judaism. If teens of any religion want to have a relationship and they are aware of its pros and cons then by all means they should get out there and see what it means to have a “real” life. I just wish Jews would stop living up to thier notorious CLOSED MINDED views on sex and try to listen out to people other than themselves for a change. I don’t know how you will respond to my comment but just know I am thankful for your post and just keep doin what you do best!! WE NEED YOU!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-32196071433639224182008-12-02T16:56:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:56:00.000-05:00""How is it self-centered?? It's not my pleasure w...""How is it self-centered?? It's not my pleasure we're talking about! My whole point is that YOUR position is self-centered. You're taking your kids' pleasure away so that you don't have to deal with the risk.""<BR/><BR/>Orthoprax, you are going about this post the wrong way.<BR/><BR/>The only comment that is neccessary to a post like this is:<BR/><BR/>Next post: JA explains to us why we should be giving children as much candy as they ask for.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Afterall, what is the cost benefit ratio of candy? Nobody ever has candy and says "this isn't for me". The risks of more cavities, or upset stomachs, is only something that parents don't want because they are selfish and don't want to pay the medical bills! Give kids more candy!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-50135157545391925552008-12-01T20:42:00.000-05:002008-12-01T20:42:00.000-05:00Not allowing children to have sex is different fro...Not allowing children to have sex is different from not allowing adults to have sex. Adults are responsible for their own actions and the harm that may befall them.<BR/><BR/>Teenagers are seen as not having the ability yet to make their own responsible decisions in important adult situations, hence it is the role of the parent to prevent them from doing stupid things.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure that you can agree that most teen sex is stupid and risky. But maybe you would argue that this is due to parents not teaching their teens how to have 'responsible sex'.<BR/><BR/>As a teenager, the child doesn't have the knowledge to be having sex. A few years dating to learn who the player is and who the good guy is before you up the stakes is worth more than 5 minutes of enjoyment.<BR/><BR/>Sex makes babies.<BR/><BR/>Teens don't need to be having babies unless they are extremely mature 19 year olds.<BR/><BR/>Sex, at least for women (maybe just at least for me as I can't speak for other women), has a huge effect upon emotions and attachment to my partner. Putting a 15 year through that turmoil if they fuck up is not anything a loving parent would do.<BR/><BR/>Making getting pregnant or a disease (the outcome) the wrong thing as opposed to premature sex (the action) the wrong doesn't make any sense. Actions are right or wrong, not natural outcomes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17238412920657745866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-22350647467909402732008-12-01T13:30:00.000-05:002008-12-01T13:30:00.000-05:00>But I sure am glad I didn't wait until mar...>But I sure am glad I didn't wait until marriage.<BR/><BR/>Im glad I waited in my twenties till I got married.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-74660400897648855172008-12-01T12:36:00.000-05:002008-12-01T12:36:00.000-05:00"we should just do a better job of educating our k..."we should just do a better job of educating our kids how to responsibly start sexual relationships"<BR/><BR/>It's called "get married".jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-80109181612289041382008-12-01T12:01:00.000-05:002008-12-01T12:01:00.000-05:00ortho:Your point about teens regretting it is thou...ortho:<BR/><BR/>Your point about teens regretting it is thought-provoking. Rather than jumping to the conclusion that we must forbid premarital sex, though, perhaps we should just do a better job of educating our kids how to responsibly start sexual relationships.<BR/><BR/><I>You would support them in their decisions to have sex. What exactly are you not permitting to them?</I><BR/><BR/>I'm looking at it from a standpoint of raising children to be good decision makers rather than of a standpoint of rules and enforcement.<BR/><BR/><I>The obvious solution is to have them try to achieve as close to a regular union as they can.</I><BR/><BR/>Gee, it'd sure be helpful to make available to them an institution that's been recognized for centuries for its (relative) success at doing just that. This is the most frustrating part of the gay marriage debate -- the argument for gay marriage is fundamentally a conservative one -- the same as that for straight marriage. And yet, because of religion, we can't convince conservatives.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Jack:<BR/><BR/>You're right. My line about teen sex being the best was a throwaway line I meant kind of as a joke. But I sure am glad I didn't wait until marriage.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Shir:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the compliment! I'm actually engaged to a wonderful Jewish (but not religious) woman now, so I guess you could say it worked out okay. ;-)Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-91811940077340306622008-12-01T09:10:00.000-05:002008-12-01T09:10:00.000-05:00For a slightly different point of view on the joy ...For a slightly different point of view on the joy of teen sex, <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB8uAQI2dzA" REL="nofollow">this</A> is interesting.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-64160136981166899482008-11-29T11:18:00.000-05:002008-11-29T11:18:00.000-05:00Is there any pleasure in life comparable to having...<I>Is there any pleasure in life comparable to having sex as an adolescent?</I><BR/><BR/>I have to agree that teenage sex was fun, but it gets so much better. I have some good stories, but in truth the sex I had later on was far better. And that is as much detail as I am providing.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-61434652271762433982008-11-28T16:30:00.000-05:002008-11-28T16:30:00.000-05:00JA,"Are you saying you don't think it's possible t...JA,<BR/><BR/>"Are you saying you don't think it's possible to raise kids to have responsible premarital sex? You're still conflating responsible premarital sex with irresponsible premarital sex."<BR/><BR/>I think it's just as possible to have responsible premarital teen sex as it is to have responsible teen drug use.<BR/><BR/>"I don't see how having responsible sex could cause one to become depressed or commit suicide."<BR/><BR/>Throwing the word "responsible" before teen sex doesn't make it real. You want to make this a No True Scotsman thing? The point is that teenagers are generally NOT responsible about sex. There is such a thing as safe drug use too.<BR/><BR/>"Yes, the risks are big ones, but that doesn't mean we should unilaterally decide that the rewards aren't worth it for our children."<BR/><BR/>Right - ideally we should teach our children correctly and recruit them to being good guards of their own well-being.<BR/><BR/>"I'm extremely skeptical of that figure and you did not provide a citation."<BR/><BR/>I actually did, just not explicitly. From the Heritage.org site related above, quote: "If you have had sexual intercourse, do you wish you had waited longer?”[6] Among those teens who reported that they had engaged in intercourse, nearly two-thirds stated that they wished they had waited longer before becoming sexually active." This number included 72% of girls, btw.<BR/><BR/>"And I'm not saying to permit kids anything they want, but to educate them of all the risks and rewards and gradually let them make their own decisions as they grow into young adults."<BR/><BR/>I agree - but your attitude is wrong. You would support them in their decisions to have sex. What exactly are you not permitting to them?<BR/><BR/>"Well, it's big of you to be tolerant of it, but it's still ridiculous to simultaneously reject premarital sex AND to forbid an entire demographic from ever getting married."<BR/><BR/>The obvious solution is to have them try to achieve as close to a regular union as they can. I've said in the past that I support civil unions. But in general this paranormative behavior isn't my focus with respect to basic policy.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-5928295527679019522008-11-28T16:29:00.000-05:002008-11-28T16:29:00.000-05:00>What will you do if your child turns out to be...>What will you do if your child turns out to be gay?<BR/><BR/>Whats the big deal? Haven't you seen "Trembling before God" Some orthos accepted their kids while others shunned them.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-29393252145816069002008-11-28T15:57:00.000-05:002008-11-28T15:57:00.000-05:00ortho:As we've seen in the course of two American ...ortho:<BR/><BR/><I>As we've seen in the course of two American generations, the slope is extremely slippery. I think *societal* acceptance of premarital sex is what is leading to this pandemic. The only way to turn the tide is by strong parental influence. Studies have shown that parents are likely the strongest influence on the child in whether they become sexually active.</I><BR/><BR/>Are you saying you don't think it's possible to raise kids to have responsible premarital sex? You're still conflating responsible premarital sex with irresponsible premarital sex.<BR/><BR/><I>What? How are they 'causes'? Depression causes premarital sex? Suicide causes teen sex?</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, obviously suicide can't be a cause, but kids who are depressed, etc., are more likely to engage in risky behavior in general. I don't see how having responsible sex could cause one to become depressed or commit suicide.<BR/><BR/><I>You admitted some of those things but simply handwaved the assessment of their real dangers.</I><BR/><BR/>Who's hand-waving? The dangers are real and must be mitigated by safe sex. Teens (and others) must be taught of all the risks, as well as which ones can be mitigated (and how) and which ones cannot be. The same is true of driving and crossing the street and eating meat, though. Yes, the risks are big ones, but that doesn't mean we should unilaterally decide that the rewards aren't worth it for our children.<BR/><BR/><I>You think you are being kind and wise by permitting to kids what they think they want. But they're as wrong as you are. You failed to comment when I told you that 2/3rds of teens who have sex *regret* doing so.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm extremely skeptical of that figure and you did not provide a citation. And I'm not saying to permit kids anything they want, but to educate them of all the risks and rewards and gradually let them make their own decisions as they grow into young adults.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm willing to be tolerant of homosexual activity but that's neither here nor there because I don't think teens should be having any kind of sex. That remains true whether they are gay, straight or other.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, it's big of you to be tolerant of it, but it's still ridiculous to simultaneously reject premarital sex AND to forbid an entire demographic from ever getting married.<BR/><BR/>Why can't Orthodox Jews ever answer that hypothetical? What will you do if your child turns out to be gay? Do you all really think it can't happen to you?Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-11943888405905166632008-11-28T15:06:00.000-05:002008-11-28T15:06:00.000-05:00JA,"Oh come on. You really think the child of educ...JA,<BR/><BR/>"Oh come on. You really think the child of educated, responsible parents are going to have similar outcomes to those of uneducated, irresponsible ones solely by saying that safe, responsible teen sex is okay? You really think parental opposition to premarital sex is the driving factor here?"<BR/><BR/>As we've seen in the course of two American generations, the slope is extremely slippery. I think *societal* acceptance of premarital sex is what is leading to this pandemic. The only way to turn the tide is by strong parental influence. Studies have shown that parents are likely the strongest influence on the child in whether they become sexually active.<BR/><BR/>Quote: 'Parents influential. When asked who influenced their decisions about sex the most, more teens cited their parents than any other influence (37 percent).' - http://www.icrsurvey.com/Study.aspx?f=NatCam_Teens_Regret.html<BR/><BR/>"Okay, the first three are causes not effects. The latter three I'll grant, but of course I admitted that in the very first paragraph of my post."<BR/><BR/>What? How are they 'causes'? Depression causes premarital sex? Suicide causes teen sex?<BR/><BR/>See here: http://www.heritage.org/research/abstinence/cda0304.cfm<BR/><BR/>You admitted some of those things but simply handwaved the assessment of their real dangers.<BR/><BR/>"How is it self-centered?? It's not my pleasure we're talking about! My whole point is that YOUR position is self-centered. You're taking your kids' pleasure away so that you don't have to deal with the risk."<BR/><BR/>Oh, that makes sense. I'm self-centeredly trying to keep kids from becoming single parents, contracting life-threatening STDs and depressive suicidality as well as trying to build for them a stable home and marriage towards their future.<BR/><BR/>You think you are being kind and wise by permitting to kids what they think they want. But they're as wrong as you are. You failed to comment when I told you that 2/3rds of teens who have sex *regret* doing so.<BR/><BR/>"I don't see how pointing out a pretty huge hole in your worldview specifically as it relates to premarital sex is changing the subject."<BR/><BR/>I'm willing to be tolerant of homosexual activity but that's neither here nor there because I don't think teens should be having any kind of sex. That remains true whether they are gay, straight or other.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-50208835677013132922008-11-28T14:47:00.000-05:002008-11-28T14:47:00.000-05:00A subject like this has already been decided by an...A subject like this has already been decided by any grownup. There are people that beleive in premarital sex and those that value waiting for marriage.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-44994212953458631002008-11-28T14:41:00.000-05:002008-11-28T14:41:00.000-05:00HH,"Forget it OP You guys have two separate value ...HH,<BR/><BR/>"Forget it OP You guys have two separate value systems. Nobody is going to convince the other"<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm not trying to convince *him*. What about *them*?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-65348603121382025802008-11-28T14:39:00.000-05:002008-11-28T14:39:00.000-05:00ortho:What are you talking about? I'm conflating t...ortho:<BR/><BR/><I>What are you talking about? I'm conflating them because you just told me the chronological story of teen sex in America since the 1960s. Once upon a time teen sex was taboo. Then it became alright if the couple was going steady and was likely to lead to marriage anyway. Now "friends with benefits" is the leading type of relationship in America where teens have sex. But yeah, *your* 15 year old is surely going to be mature enough to know the difference.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh come on. You really think the child of educated, responsible parents are going to have similar outcomes to those of uneducated, irresponsible ones solely by saying that safe, responsible teen sex is okay? You really think parental opposition to premarital sex is the driving factor here? <BR/><BR/><I>Oh, you're right. Permissiveness for sexual activity outside of marriage surely had no effect on the institution. That's why marriage is as strong today as it was in the 1950s. What kind of magic was I thinking of?</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, you're right about that.<BR/><BR/><I>More disaffected youth, more depression, more suicide, more disease, more unwanted pregnancies, more abortions, more teen moms.</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, the first three are causes not effects. The latter three I'll grant, but of course I admitted that in the very first paragraph of my post.<BR/><BR/><I>In the face of this - yes, your pursuit of pleasure is completely short-sighted and self-centered.</I><BR/><BR/>How is it self-centered?? It's not my pleasure we're talking about! My whole point is that YOUR position is self-centered. You're taking your kids' pleasure away so that you don't have to deal with the risk.<BR/><BR/><I>How come you're trying to change the subject?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't see how pointing out a pretty huge hole in your worldview specifically as it relates to premarital sex is changing the subject.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-55399454199536273302008-11-28T14:27:00.000-05:002008-11-28T14:27:00.000-05:00JA,"You're conflating a whole bunch of things. The...JA,<BR/><BR/>"You're conflating a whole bunch of things. There's a world of difference between a kid who grows up in a stable family and raised in a thoughtful manner to become a responsible and caring young adult choosing to have sex with someone he cares about and a kid from a screwed up family with little empathy going around screwing people he doesn't even like."<BR/><BR/>What are you talking about? I'm conflating them because you just told me the chronological story of teen sex in America since the 1960s. Once upon a time teen sex was taboo. Then it became alright if the couple was going steady and was likely to lead to marriage anyway. Now "friends with benefits" is the leading type of relationship in America where teens have sex. But yeah, *your* 15 year old is surely going to be mature enough to know the difference.<BR/><BR/>"You're also at times pretending you're talking only about "kids" when you oppose premarital sex in general."<BR/><BR/>I oppose premarital sex generally, but I oppose teen premarital sex much more.<BR/><BR/>"Is that the same magical thinking that thinks gay marriage weakens (straight) marriage?"<BR/><BR/>Oh, you're right. Permissiveness for sexual activity outside of marriage surely had no effect on the institution. That's why marriage is as strong today as it was in the 1950s. What kind of magic was I thinking of?<BR/><BR/>"Uh, yeah. Woo hoo. More sex, more love, more pleasure. Oh, how shallow!"<BR/><BR/>More disaffected youth, more depression, more suicide, more disease, more unwanted pregnancies, more abortions, more teen moms. In the face of this - yes, your pursuit of pleasure is completely short-sighted and self-centered.<BR/><BR/>"Forbidding all premarital sex is not really analogous to forbidding tv on school nights. Closer to forbidding tv before marriage, maybe."<BR/><BR/>Well, duh, the magnitude of the problem is that much more severe for teen sex than teen TV watching. I would be even more severe for still more dangerous activity and say, for example, no methamphetamines - ever.<BR/><BR/>"And what if your child turns out to be gay? Would you insist on life-long celibacy? Or that he should marry a woman and imagine Brad Pitt when he's making children with her?"<BR/><BR/>How come you're trying to change the subject?Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-42554721264280066132008-11-28T13:50:00.000-05:002008-11-28T13:50:00.000-05:00Forget it OPYou guys have two separate value syste...Forget it OP<BR/><BR/>You guys have two separate value systems. Nobody is going to convince the otherHoly Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.com