tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post113680094816724011..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Is a Belief in God Beneficial? Or, What's an Atheist to Do?Jewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-81069530038542821582007-04-16T13:56:00.000-04:002007-04-16T13:56:00.000-04:00Great post, wanted to thank you for your blog it h...Great post, wanted to thank you for your blog it has helped me a lot in my travels away from Orthodox Judaism.<BR/><BR/>The community aspect is important, I am lucky enough to be involved with the Open Source/Linux community which is a great substitute (of sorts) for the Jewish community I used to belong to (although living in Jerusalem i'm still surrounded mostly by religious Jews). The people from Debian, Ubuntu and other Linux groups have become the community I now identify with. Like the Jews they have community members in almost every city on the planet and get-togethers both online and offline throughout the year. I've also found most of the FOSS community to be atheists or agnostics as generally they are very rational,scientific people.<BR/><BR/>Im finding it hard to bring any spirituality into my life at the moment, I used to teach kaballah and seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Recently though I have been approaching spirituality again through Alistair Crowley and similar occult writers - i've found the links to Kaballah fascinating.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for the great blog, I'll link to you once my blog is up and running again...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1150337757023409112006-06-14T22:15:00.000-04:002006-06-14T22:15:00.000-04:00Sometimes I wonder if finding a Higher Power and R...Sometimes I wonder if finding a Higher Power and Religion aren't just another addiction that feed and already addictive eprsonallity....Lysshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772991974064492182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1137729616290805252006-01-19T23:00:00.000-05:002006-01-19T23:00:00.000-05:00freethoughtmom,I have read it, thanks. :)As far as...freethoughtmom,<BR/><BR/>I have read it, thanks. :)<BR/><BR/>As far as Infinite Jest goes... What isn't it about? :) As I see it, DFW spent a lot of time dealing with the slogans of AA (for example) and how they are at the same time simplistic and yet somehow true. Also, highly intelligent/skeptical characters (like the protagonist) are portrayed as having perhaps a harder time with addictions than those who may believe things more readily.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1137022096466790752006-01-11T18:28:00.000-05:002006-01-11T18:28:00.000-05:00Thanks Jdhurf. It means a lot to me when people ar...Thanks Jdhurf. It means a lot to me when people are humble enough to accept that that they offended someone and then even more admirable when they apologize for coming off that way.<BR/>I look forward to having a friendly conversation about prayer with you and cyberkitten and anyone else who would like to join in.<BR/>Also, I really don't like to be called "religious". Organized religion, i.e. "church" is a man-made manifestation of Christians gathering together and subject to imperfection and flaws. Over the years, a lot of horrible things were accomplished under the guise of religion. It is because of religion that turn many people away from the message of Christ.<BR/>Pat Robertson is religious.<BR/>I just follow Christ and go to church on Sundays-- and not because I HAVE to but because the Bible says to gather together.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1137019855288004112006-01-11T17:50:00.000-05:002006-01-11T17:50:00.000-05:00If people will use prayer in the manner you sugges...<I>If people will use prayer in the manner you suggest then that is certainly a positive manifestation of praying, but there are many other effective measures one could use rather than the “structured way of talking to themselves”.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with that.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1137015126197841912006-01-11T16:32:00.000-05:002006-01-11T16:32:00.000-05:00JA,I understand your point and I wouldn’t necessar...JA,<BR/><BR/>I understand your point and I wouldn’t necessarily dismiss it out of hand, I actually have thought along this line before. If people will use prayer in the manner you suggest then that is certainly a positive manifestation of praying, but there are many other effective measures one could use rather than the “structured way of talking to themselves”. <BR/><BR/>“Consider a person with social anxiety who prays every morning for God to give her the courage to talk to people. If it helps her be courageous, can't it be a good thing?”<BR/><BR/>I’d go for that, but my point here is that there are better ways of making one feel more courageous with a better success rate than praying to a suspected supernatural force/entity.<BR/><BR/>Secularhumanist,<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post and that I agree with you.<BR/><BR/>“I invite you to visit if you should feel inclined but leave your "Mean Hat" at the door. I try to be civil to others on my blog and I would hate to have to be tempted to be sassy.” – Sadie Lou<BR/><BR/>Invitation accepted, I apologize if I came off as “mean” I don’t think I did but I can certainly understand how you took offense at my posts. Maybe using the word beggary was a bit strong considering the religious would be reading it, sorry. I sincerely don’t believe that I was being mean or that I was being uncivil, I was just using strong language to further my point of view and I will rectify this when I visit your blog.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1137004790825716672006-01-11T13:39:00.000-05:002006-01-11T13:39:00.000-05:00Sadie Lou said: I'll post on prayer tomorrow on my...Sadie Lou said: I'll post on prayer tomorrow on my blog. <BR/><BR/>I'll look forward to the discusion... and learning something (I hope).CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136999417385399602006-01-11T12:10:00.000-05:002006-01-11T12:10:00.000-05:00cyberkitten--I'll post on prayer tomorrow on my bl...cyberkitten--<BR/>I'll post on prayer tomorrow on my blog.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136997079361881352006-01-11T11:31:00.000-05:002006-01-11T11:31:00.000-05:00secularhumanist, That makes a lot of sense. Thank...secularhumanist, <BR/><BR/>That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136996631826491962006-01-11T11:23:00.000-05:002006-01-11T11:23:00.000-05:00Sadie Lou said: God is not akin to a magic genie i...Sadie Lou said: God is not akin to a magic genie in a bottle. He doesn't "grant wishes" in a sense that whatever you ask for is exactly what you'll get.<BR/><BR/>Prayer has always confused me. If you can't petition God through prayer.. and he has a plan for all of us.. and he know's what's going on in our lives (and knows what's going to happen) then why bother?<BR/><BR/>God already knows anything that you can relate to him in a prayer - therefore are prayers said to make people feel better about a 'hopeless' situation.......?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136995939659274482006-01-11T11:12:00.000-05:002006-01-11T11:12:00.000-05:00However, I copied down what you said and I'm going...However, I copied down what you said and I'm going to do a post on my blog tomorrow. I invite you to visit if you should feel inclined but leave your "Mean Hat" at the door. I try to be civil to others on my blog and I would hate to have to be tempted to be sassy.<BR/>:)Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136995569749053502006-01-11T11:06:00.000-05:002006-01-11T11:06:00.000-05:00Oh sorry, JA. I just saw the "jewish" part in the ...Oh sorry, JA. I just saw the "jewish" part in the handle, didn't read the whole thing.<BR/><BR/>Jdurf--<BR/>I get tired of telling people the purpose of prayer. God is not akin to a magic genie in a bottle. He doesn't "grant wishes" in a sense that whatever you ask for is exactly what you'll get.<BR/>and I started writting what it means to me, but you're usually rude to me and offensive and I just now decided to not to waste my time.<BR/>In fact, there's too much misrepresentations here to cover in one comment so *I give up*Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136990833431788242006-01-11T09:47:00.000-05:002006-01-11T09:47:00.000-05:00that last sentence should have read: I believe we ...that last sentence should have read: I believe we need a variety (in kind and depth) of connections with others in order to maintain our sanity.<BR/><BR/>sorry for the typos!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136990650113021762006-01-11T09:44:00.000-05:002006-01-11T09:44:00.000-05:00I have read a number of anthropological studies th...I have read a number of anthropological studies that find that people who live in traditional, tight-knit communities (not necessarily religious ones, though I think it's possible to extrapolate) suffer more from anxiety than depression. One possible explanation for this is that this kind of social structure, while providing a good deal of social support (which can guard against depression) also tends to place other social demands on people that can make them anxious (social scrutiny, lack of privacy, lack of diverse non-overlapping social networks, pressure to conform to communal norms). People who do not live within such a social structure (most 21st century, western urbanites) tend to suffer more from depression than anxiety. They don't have to endure the same kind of social scrutiny and pressure that can lead to anxiety, but may experiences feelings of isolation and alienation that contribute to depression. I guess the key here is to be a part of some kind of community, whether it is religious, spiritual, or even just based around shared interests and passions (personal, political or otherwise). Humans are inherently social beings and I believe we need a variety (in kind of depth) of connections with in other to maintain our sanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136967932958544632006-01-11T03:25:00.000-05:002006-01-11T03:25:00.000-05:00JDHURF,Perhaps we can look at prayer as a structur...JDHURF,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps we can look at prayer as a structured way of talking to one's self, if nothing else. Some ways of talking to one's self are more effective than others, and perhaps prayer is ineffective, but I don't think you can just dismiss it out of hand.<BR/><BR/>Consider a person with social anxiety who prays every morning for God to give her the courage to talk to people. If it helps her be courageous, can't it be a good thing? Again, obviously I wouldn't use prayer, but I'm not sure that it's any more silly than writing in a diary or talking to yourself in the mirror.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136966990376117792006-01-11T03:09:00.000-05:002006-01-11T03:09:00.000-05:00There is a reason why religion is referred to as f...There is a reason why religion is referred to as faith and not science. Faith doesn't hold to the same requirements as science and it doesn't have to. Ani Maamin. I believe. I do and I haven't any problem with it or with atheists and agnostics. <BR/><BR/>Faith is a deeply personal thing and I am one of those people who believes that sometimes there are individual truths that we all must discover on our own.<BR/><BR/>I cannot say that prayer works or does not work. I cannot prove that G-d exists anymore than you can disprove it. But there are some things that I can prove.<BR/><BR/>I can prove that humans have some basic needs and that for large numbers of us being part of a community is one of those needs. There is a need to feel needed and wanted. Being in tune with this goes a long way to helping you want to live and be a part of things.<BR/><BR/>There are a lot of factors here.<BR/><BR/>Good post.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136963481537774492006-01-11T02:11:00.000-05:002006-01-11T02:11:00.000-05:00“I don't agree, except for a small subset of praye...“I don't agree, except for a small subset of prayer. Many people use prayer as a kind of meditation, not as "God, I want a pony!" Also, people pray for things like courage, others' health, and the ability to be better people, so their hearts are definitely in the right place.<BR/><BR/>I don't pray because I've got no-one to pray to, but, except for the I-want-a-pony kind, I think it's reasonable.” – JA<BR/><BR/>I wasn’t speaking only of the “god, I want a pony!” prayers but also of the “god, I want courage, health, and ability” prayers also. Rather than work out, eat healthy, and live responsibly people pray (beg) to an unseen supernatural force to bring these attributes about for them (this is beggary). Rather than taking effective steps to create positive changes within themselves, within others, and within the environment through their own human ability and power they pray to a supernatural being to do these things for them. I find this regrettable, use your human ability and power to effect positive change and quit begging a supernatural force to do it for you!!<BR/><BR/>I don’t pray because I don’t believe in supernatural forces that will intercede within the natural realm and alter natural circumstances, hence I also have no one to pray to but unlike you I do not think it is reasonable. For as I have already stated god supposedly has a plan, if this plan includes you having a level of health, courage, or ability that is to be desired then praying for anything different is completely futile! That was my point, and I am not saying that these individuals “hearts” are in the wrong place but that their “minds” are. For surely praying to an unseen supernatural force to intercede with human affairs for positive change would be the right thing to do, however it is irrational when taken into the religious “gods-plan” context.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136957218263960682006-01-11T00:26:00.000-05:002006-01-11T00:26:00.000-05:00Sadie Lou,That wasn't me!Wandering Coyote,Glad to ...Sadie Lou,<BR/><BR/>That wasn't me!<BR/><BR/><BR/>Wandering Coyote,<BR/><BR/>Glad to help. :) Hope they do more good than harm.<BR/><BR/><BR/>JDHURF,<BR/><BR/><I>Prayer is an example of weakness and helplessness. It is the ultimate example of beggary, wanting something for nothing.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't agree, except for a small subset of prayer. Many people use prayer as a kind of meditation, not as "God, I want a pony!" Also, people pray for things like courage, others' health, and the ability to be better people, so their hearts are definitely in the right place.<BR/><BR/>I don't pray because I've got no-one to pray to, but, except for the I-want-a-pony kind, I think it's reasonable.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136954469525346002006-01-10T23:41:00.000-05:002006-01-10T23:41:00.000-05:00Prayer is an example of weakness and helplessness....Prayer is an example of weakness and helplessness. It is the ultimate example of beggary, wanting something for nothing. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore what is the use of praying if you believe in god? For the religious say that god has a “plan” for us, if we are praying for something within gods plan then it will happen regardless of prayer so praying is useless in this sense. Then if we pray for something that is not in gods plan then what we are praying for will not happen whether we pray or not, hence praying not only doesn’t work it is completely futile.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136952795439035532006-01-10T23:13:00.000-05:002006-01-10T23:13:00.000-05:00Prayer does not work. I love the example from Rav...Prayer does not work. I love the example from Raving Atheists: why has god never made a limb grow back for an amputee. Surely the faithful say that god can do anything so growing back a limb shouldn't be a problem.<BR/>God seems to focus only on chosen cancer victims, the blind, lepers, stroke victims, and a few paralysis victims to work his miracles.<BR/>Does he hate amputees, or can't he perform that trick?Baconeaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11134934827966299989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136952559416268322006-01-10T23:09:00.000-05:002006-01-10T23:09:00.000-05:00I just read both posts you linked to above. The o...I just read both posts you linked to above. The one entitled "What's Good About Leaving Orthodoxy" really spoke to me, and you reasons for leaving are very similar to why I left Christianity. Thanks for the links; I wouldn't have read those otherwise, and now you've got me thinking about things - again.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136952056860565652006-01-10T23:00:00.000-05:002006-01-10T23:00:00.000-05:00“I'm just shocked that you pick up on some depende...“I'm just shocked that you pick up on some dependency issues for Christians...” – Sadie Lou<BR/><BR/>You’ve got to be kidding me. There are all sorts of people that have dependency issues and that need the group validation to feel good about themselves and to feel comfortable that they are doing the “right” thing, Christians are most certainly NOT exempt from this, if any thing they may exhibit this attribute more strongly than other religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, etc. <BR/> I live in Tulsa Ok (a highly evangelical Christian population) and I am from a secular area so moving to Tulsa was a culture shock to say the least. One thing that I have noticed is that a large portion of the Christians here feel the need to show-boat their faith and make public displays of it, they constantly promote each others “faith” in public and constantly stroke each others religious ego. Evangelical Christians need the constant “pat on the back” from other Christians. They are appealing to others within their religious group and are strictly following informational and normative social influences, they are most definitely depending upon their religious group to say otherwise is outrageous.JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136950394082588842006-01-10T22:33:00.000-05:002006-01-10T22:33:00.000-05:00JA said...I think that the community of non-believ...JA said...<I>I think that the community of non-believers tend to be less dependent on others for validation, sense of security, and reassurance of belief in certain ideas.</I><BR/><BR/>That's ironic some of us come across that way because the bible tells us not to seek validation, merit and dependancy on each other but in God. People will disappoint you. I'm not being pessamistic--I'm just saying that it's folly to rely on others to make YOU happy.<BR/>God tells us that He is our comfort in trials and He can be trusted and depended on--He will never forsake us. I'm just shocked that you pick up on some dependency issues for Christians...<BR/>Trust in Him alone.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136943157881846082006-01-10T20:32:00.000-05:002006-01-10T20:32:00.000-05:00Thanks, everybody for the compliments!DBS,Very tru...Thanks, everybody for the compliments!<BR/><BR/><BR/>DBS,<BR/><BR/>Very true. There is definitely a psychic downside in fundamentalist religion. There's often a lot of pressure to conform and everybody's always in your business. As I wrote (sort of) I wasn't willing to pay the psychic cost required to stay.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Jewish Freak,<BR/><BR/>Interesting point. The community's great while it's there, but what happens if you find yourself alone? Those who have had experience being more on their own may have built stronger internal resources.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Bacon Eating Atheist Jew,<BR/><BR/>Another thing is that atheists who live alone (though certainly not all atheists) may not feel as obligated to keep on living and taking care of themselves as do those with families and communal obligations.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Wandering Coyote,<BR/><BR/><I>I think many people assume that athiests are also nihilstic and that plainly isn't true. </I><BR/><BR/>Very true. Actually, I can't believe I left Sagan out of my post. He was the epitome of finding meaning as an atheist. As you say (or imply) some of the Christians I know are the friendliest, kindest people in the world. I just have to remember not to bring up politics or religion with them. :)<BR/><BR/><BR/>asher,<BR/><BR/><I>I'm sorry to say you are making the mistake of causation.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's definitely an issue. I don't think there's any way to establish which is cause and which effect. Obviously, for example, people who are already depressed would be less likely to attend services.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be surprised if depression was overwhelming in the Jewish community; it's overwhelming in America. As I wrote in my response to DBS, living as an OJ definitely has its psychic downsides as well.<BR/><BR/><I>In addition, there was alot of evidence that ill people who were prayed for often got better. I can think of two examples: the last Pope and Ariel Sharon whom many people are praying for right now. Again, we have the problem of causation.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm skeptical about this. None of the prayer studies were well done and none showed a really significant difference. Also, the Pope and Sharon probably had the best doctors and equipment in the world. If every stroke victim had the 5 best doctors attending to him 'round the clock, the statistics would be a lot different. Maybe that's what you meant by "again, we have the problem of causation," though.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Miranda,<BR/><BR/>The short answer is that I left (about 5 years ago, but it was a long process) because I no longer believed, no longer fit in, and had to move on in order to keep growing as a person. <BR/><BR/>I've previously written about <A HREF="http://jewishatheist.blogspot.com/2005/06/how-i-left-orthodoxy.html" REL="nofollow">How I Left Orthodoxy</A> and <A HREF="http://jewishatheist.blogspot.com/2005/06/whats-good-about-leaving-orthodoxy.html" REL="nofollow">What's Good About Leaving Orthodoxy</A>.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136938080627771622006-01-10T19:08:00.000-05:002006-01-10T19:08:00.000-05:00"It certainly seems like there are benefits to bel..."It certainly seems like there are benefits to believing. But I can't just flip a switch and believe in God even if I decide believing is in my best interest."<BR/><BR/>This is what I used to argue when my very good atheist friend argued that he'd be an atheist until he was in his death bed, and then convert.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes beliefs seem impossible to change. Sometimes they change because of very small events.<BR/><BR/>When and why did you stop believing in a personal god?<BR/><BR/>Your blog, by the way, is one of the most fascinating I've ever come across. I look forward to your next posts.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.com