tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post113570387696210424..comments2024-01-24T04:59:45.518-05:00Comments on Jewish Atheist: Abortion is All But Gone in South DakotaJewish Atheisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136413015202660582006-01-04T17:16:00.000-05:002006-01-04T17:16:00.000-05:00asher said... The common response is that most peo...asher said... <BR/>The common response is that most people are against abortion except in the case of rape, incest or danger to the mother. That's kind of intellectually currupt. A fetus is a fetus. You either agree that it's a life or you don't. <BR/><BR/>I think the more interesting stat would be to find out how many pregnancies are actually the result of incest or rape. It's a number I've never seen. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Response: The argument in favor of abortion is "choice" aka "freedom", a paramount value of our society. Life is another paramount value. When there has already been "choice" as in the vast amount of abortions, life is the value that remains and should be honored, and enforced. <BR/><BR/>Since a raped woman had no choice, it follows that she is still entitled to a choice to carry the baby or abort. This is not hypocritical; it is simply recognizing two balancing interests both of which are backed by compelling values.<BR/><BR/>Again, in most cases choice has already been discarded, ;leaving only life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136065916865195832005-12-31T16:51:00.000-05:002005-12-31T16:51:00.000-05:00Sadie: While I think I understand what you mean, ...Sadie: While I think I understand what you mean, the way I see it is that you're supporting a public policy agenda that would effectively take choice away from people by making abortion less accessible and even illegal. That means that, even if in your personal life you don't go telling people what to do, that indirectly, you are doing just that.<BR/><BR/>If you aren't supporting that agenda, then I'd say you're pro-choice even if you don't know it - because you support letting people make up their own minds.<BR/><BR/>I think you'd be surprised to find that most pro-choice people also don't think abortion should be used as birth control.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136056389248831572005-12-31T14:13:00.000-05:002005-12-31T14:13:00.000-05:00Well said Laura but be careful not to generalize. ...Well said Laura but be careful not to generalize. Not all people who are pro-life try to press their agenda on everyone else.<BR/>While I think abortion is wrong as a means of birth control--I certainly don't do anything other than just talk about it with other people. <BR/>Abortion is wrong for me and everyone else is responsible for their own actions.<BR/>Wandering--<BR/>It is good to talk about it. That's why I do it. I just avoid it when it starts looking like it's gonna get ugly or when both sides are so stiff--no good can come of it. I enjoyed this debate. (got a little frustrated but that's okay)<BR/>Jdurf--<BR/>I meant face to face debating--not online debate. Should have made that a little clearer.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1136040545576581192005-12-31T09:49:00.000-05:002005-12-31T09:49:00.000-05:00That's the thing... I'm not trying to convince an...That's the thing... I'm not trying to convince anyone that the SHOULD have abortions, unlike pro life people who try to convince everyone, everywhere that they shouldn't. I'm saying that it's a choice. And yes, it's an option for me to answer your question. No bones about it. If the option is ever legally taken away from me, I will have no choice but to have my tubes tied and/or John will get "the snip".<BR/><BR/>As far as abortion is concerned, I think that during the first trimester, when there is no way the fetus can survive without the mother, and when most miscarriages and natural abortions happen anyway, that there's no problem with it. After that, it does become a moral dilemma for everyone to decide for themselves what they believe is right.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135987334779161762005-12-30T19:02:00.000-05:002005-12-30T19:02:00.000-05:00Sadie: I know what you mean! That's why I tend to...Sadie: I know what you mean! That's why I tend to stay out of these online debates - it's draining and one person will ever convince the other. And no one wants to be convinced, either. But it's good to get this stuff out, and although I disagree with your stance - and you mine, obviously - a rousing debate once in a while is rather invigorating. It certainly doesn't mean I disresect anyone.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135981139869566212005-12-30T17:18:00.000-05:002005-12-30T17:18:00.000-05:00Your not doing a good job of avoiding it! Lol!Your not doing a good job of avoiding it! Lol!JDHURFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02133971619468463558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135979845711908142005-12-30T16:57:00.000-05:002005-12-30T16:57:00.000-05:00debating abortion is like banging my head into a b...debating abortion is like banging my head into a brick wall--it's going to hurt so I avoid it at all costs...Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135975231031679912005-12-30T15:40:00.000-05:002005-12-30T15:40:00.000-05:00Sadie: Yes, the primary biological function of sex...Sadie: Yes, the primary biological function of sex is reproduction, but we all know that that's not the primary reason we humans engage in it. Amongst the myriad of reasons, sex is often about power. And that's what the abortion issue is about, ultimately: power - who has it and who doesn't.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135965668768610902005-12-30T13:01:00.000-05:002005-12-30T13:01:00.000-05:00Laura--it's so simple-stupid.Sex makes babies and ...Laura--<BR/>it's so simple-stupid.<BR/>Sex makes babies and that is it's primary function.<BR/>Creating babies is not an after thought or secondary to pleasure.<BR/>Teens having unprotected sex are saying to themselves--"if we (yes, we) get pregnant--we don't have to be parents--we have choices)<BR/>That's choosing the pleasure over the function and saying that if the function produces life--we can just get rid of it.<BR/>Laura--<BR/>in your case, you use protection. Abortion is an option? You don't have to answer that--I'm just sayin'.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135963332955482502005-12-30T12:22:00.000-05:002005-12-30T12:22:00.000-05:00Oracle certainly DOES NOT make a valid point about...Oracle certainly DOES NOT make a valid point about the orphans, yet I am not surprised his type of logic would compell him to write such an asinine statement.<BR/><BR/>While I agree that abortion should not take the place of personal responsibility, it's really not fair to take the choice away from some and not others. Again though: whose conscience is this on? No one else's but the woman's (and her partner, if applicable).<BR/><BR/>Laura: Agree 100%.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135960380392879662005-12-30T11:33:00.000-05:002005-12-30T11:33:00.000-05:00Sadie & Oracle: Both of you are eluding that the ...Sadie & Oracle: Both of you are eluding that the only purpose of sex is procreation. i.e. you have to be ready for a baby if you want to have sex. Abstinence is 100% effective. To me, that reduces humans to mere animals- something that goes against Christian doctrine (that humans are special). Most animals have sex for purely functional purposes. Humans have a complex psyhological and emotional attachment to the act of sex, this makes sex more that just mere procreation. Someone like myself, who is married, who is "ready" for sex, but just does not want children deserves an effective, and safe form of birth control. To imply that I'm not ready for sex is asinine. And to say that if my method of choice should fail that I should have no options but to have a child is to reduce me to the level of a child - unable to think for myself or to know what is best for me. It's that kind of paternalistic attitude that keeps women subordinate.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135957103434899722005-12-30T10:38:00.000-05:002005-12-30T10:38:00.000-05:00Wandering--You said, "...only if they have the wil...Wandering--<BR/>You said, "...only if they have the will to do so." I'm saying that even if their "will" tells them this baby is unwanted because of the way she got pregnant but if she goes against the grain of her emotions and chooses to keep it, God would most likely honor that choice and bless the relationship because of her difficult choice.<BR/>Therefore,<BR/>I believe that abortion should always be illegal as a form of birth control--in medical cases, each case should be weighed and decided based on medical dilemmas. Abortion should never be allowed for reasons like,"We're just not ready to have a baby"<BR/>The answer to that is in the past tense: "Then you weren't ready for sex."<BR/><BR/>Oracle makes a valid point about the homeless....Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135922820802963812005-12-30T01:07:00.000-05:002005-12-30T01:07:00.000-05:00Laura: never thought of that, though it fits.Sadie...Laura: never thought of that, though it fits.<BR/><BR/>Sadie: I absolutely agree when you said that the mother/child bond can transcend the violence that created the child. But only if there is the will to do so, and only if the mother chooses to do so. And those would be the women choosing not to abort.<BR/><BR/>One more thing to add to this conversation:<BR/><BR/>There are millions of babies all over the world languishing in horrific conditions in orphanages. I think it's all very well and good to expect a woman to not abort and adopt out instead, but really - there are so many babies out there with no parents, no resources and little hope; these are the already born that need the love of an adopted family. Why bring more into the world if it can be prevented?Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135911929626297212005-12-29T22:05:00.000-05:002005-12-29T22:05:00.000-05:00Laura--I have no clue as to why people who are aga...Laura--<BR/>I have no clue as to why people who are against abortion are also against birth control. I'm assuming, based on conversations I've had with people who are against birth control, that it's about having faith in God vs. taking the matter into your own hands. The bible also says that children are a blessing--and who wouldn't want blessings?<BR/>That's NOT my opinion though.<BR/>I'm just telling you what I've heard.<BR/>Also, you said:<BR/><I>"for others, the child would be a constant reminder of something that they need to forget and move on from. "</I><BR/>My answer to that is that the love and the bond between mother and child can transcend the vilolence that created the child.<BR/>I honestly and truly believe that God would honor and bless a woman with the supernatural ability to love the child regaurdless of the situation--the child, you'll remember, is blameless.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135905846490492672005-12-29T20:24:00.000-05:002005-12-29T20:24:00.000-05:00Ooooh, I thought maybe he was going to exhort the ...Ooooh, I thought maybe he was going to exhort the virtues of anal...Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135891927147717142005-12-29T16:32:00.000-05:002005-12-29T16:32:00.000-05:00Laura: I think Oracle is referring to abstinence (...Laura: I think Oracle is referring to abstinence (i.e. expecting you to repress your sexuality).Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135889412123732312005-12-29T15:50:00.000-05:002005-12-29T15:50:00.000-05:00Oracle: Really? Please enlighten me on the other...Oracle: Really? Please enlighten me on the other options available that are 100% effective. I'm DYING to know where they've been hiding...Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135863120659601712005-12-29T08:32:00.000-05:002005-12-29T08:32:00.000-05:00Sadie: What you say may be true for some women. H...Sadie: What you say may be true for some women. However, for others, the child would be a constant reminder of something that they need to forget and move on from. There would be no closure. Also, you're forgetting the persistent use of rape and genocidal rape in warfare - should the Bosnian and Serbian women (raped by both sides to clease the other) be forced to bear those children? And of course there's the traditional societal problems of truly patriarchal societies where a woman who is raped and has no choice but to have the child is then un-marriageable and is often killed for being dishonored.<BR/><BR/>All of these problems are linked together, you can't take them piecemeal. We forget when we debate abortion that it's not just about "selfish" middle class American women. It's about all women everywhere, under all circumstances.<BR/><BR/>I also have to ask again, because no one answered before - why are so many who are against abortion also against emergency contraception and general contraception? Why not support what helps prevent what you see as murder?<BR/><BR/>I, for instance, do not want children - it's something I've thought long and hard about. To some, that makes me some kind of freak. I do my best to find a safe, effective contraception method short of surgery (the only fully effective option for women). If something were to fail, I'd have no second thoughts. We are not planning for children (emotionally or economically), there's no way we could properly support a child, and finally, we don't want one. Is it selfish that I put more thought into not wanting kids than most people put into having them? That I put my own body and health in <I>danger</I> because that is the only effective method of contraception available to me?Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135828043456126262005-12-28T22:47:00.000-05:002005-12-28T22:47:00.000-05:00I fail to see how the actions of adults are the fa...I fail to see how the actions of adults are the fault of the unborn.<BR/>A man, in sin, rapes a woman: She in turn puts a stop to a life in progress. One bad move deserves another, I suppose?<BR/>Is a woman so uncapable of loving a child born to her through a violation? If that was true--there would be a lot of unloved children wandering around stemming from divorce or spousal abuse.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135812995905255432005-12-28T18:36:00.000-05:002005-12-28T18:36:00.000-05:00Militant feminist?? LMAO!! I am neither. (I'm n...Militant feminist?? LMAO!! I am neither. (I'm not even a registered Democrat). Bravo to what Laura and Wandering Coyote have said. This dude has flown off his rocker. Too bad he is indicative of right-wing males.Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05548101428086781420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135809846010332412005-12-28T17:44:00.000-05:002005-12-28T17:44:00.000-05:00Laura: Very well stated; I couldn't have said it ...Laura: Very well stated; I couldn't have said it better myself.<BR/><BR/>I am the furthest thing from "militant" myself.<BR/><BR/>Militant Republican MALES, like Oracle, need to realize that the empowerment of women is the key to bringing balance and peace to the world, not masculine endeavours such as war and imperialism. And in order for a woman to be empowered, one of the key things she requires is complete control over her destiny - which includes (but isn't limited to, obviously) complete control over her reproductive system.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135797089984325792005-12-28T14:11:00.000-05:002005-12-28T14:11:00.000-05:00Oracle: I love it when militant republicans get s...Oracle: I love it when militant republicans get so worked up that they can't be bothered to proof read their comments.<BR/><BR/>I think you're probably the only person in the world that would categorize me as "militant". It just shows you don't know what you're talking about.<BR/><BR/>I have always maintained that if you are against abortion, then don't have one. Teach your children not to have one.<BR/><BR/>Abortion isn't just about "selfish" women. Women's control of their own fertility and sexual/reproductive rights is a cornerstone of women's equality. Look at places where women are most oppressed, South Asia, Latin America, the Middle East, Africa - all of these regions have in common high fertility rates. When women are given no choices in their own reproductive rights, then they are more at risk of other forms of oppression. They are kept economically dependent on men, they are chained to their homes, they are paid less, their work is less valued, and often they suffer higher mortality rates. Contraception and free choice is a major component to giving women access to the public spheres of politics, economics, the workforce and education.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135792916767786432005-12-28T13:01:00.000-05:002005-12-28T13:01:00.000-05:00Oracle25 said: I think life is sacred no matter w...Oracle25 said: <I> I think life is sacred <B>no matter what</B>.</I><BR/><BR/>Oracle25 later said: <I>Abortion is the heartless murder of a child, Death Penalty is just punishment for those convicted of unspeakable crimes.</I><BR/><BR/>Please explain the blatent contradiction.Wandering Coyotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478039463695542535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135779879773407612005-12-28T09:24:00.000-05:002005-12-28T09:24:00.000-05:00Self-proclaimed Christian Prophet.... I am curious...Self-proclaimed Christian Prophet.... I am curious what you believe would be the damage to the spirit of a child born to a mother who does not want her/him?Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14013537730034501164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13054771.post-1135775139102961152005-12-28T08:05:00.000-05:002005-12-28T08:05:00.000-05:00WC - I think you're absolutely correct. Women's b...WC - I think you're absolutely correct. Women's bodies are often used as the moral battleground in patriarchal societies. We look at the Middle East and gawk at how they treat their women- but the standards and traditions that allow them to treat them that way are the same here, they're just more subtle.<BR/><BR/>The choice should be left up to each individual woman (and her partner if he is fit to participate in the discussion). How is it anyone else's business at all?<BR/><BR/>And why is it that a lot of these anit-abortion nutcases are also against contraception? You don't like abortion, fine - then give us a safe, effective means to prevent pregnancy. Or are we all supposed to wait around for the perfect man to come save us and carry us to our destiny of motherhood? Fuck that.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.com